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Battery Cl. 802 trial (tri-mode)

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jayah

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It is about time we had a decent trial of battery tech following the timid box ticking of IPEMU. But Newbury to Penzance and back does feel like a moonshot!

There must be lots of relatively low mileage urban diesel duties that regularly come under OLE while you can get buses with 350KwH batteries now. Rail vehicles are so heavy and expensive batteries could be a big win.
 
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Bald Rick

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It is about time we had a decent trial of battery tech following the timid box ticking of IPEMU. But Newbury to Penzance and back does feel like a moonshot!

There must be lots of relatively low mileage urban diesel duties that regularly come under OLE while you can get buses with 350KwH batteries now. Rail vehicles are so heavy and expensive batteries could be a big win.

I’m convinced the challenges are more about finance, liability and industry structure rather than the technology. The tech is reasonably mature now. The Birmingham trams are steadily getting on with it, and so it will be on the Valley lines before long. Clearly the application is limited: Newbury - Penzance is for headlines I suggest rather than reality any time soon. But there are plenty of routes with potential.

The cynic in me also thinks that some rolling stock engineers don’t like the principle as a) they would prefer straight electrification as it means less for them to worry about, or b) batteries means fewer engines to play with, or c) both.
 

Energy

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or b) batteries means fewer engines to play with
I have a feeling they don't really like having engines, it means they have to try and squeeze it under the train and are quite difficult to fit in.
 

Bald Rick

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I have a feeling they don't really like having engines, it means they have to try and squeeze it under the train and are quite difficult to fit in.

Yeah but some of the fitters really like playing with engines, gearboxes, oil etc.
 

D365

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It is about time we had a decent trial of battery tech following the timid box ticking of IPEMU.
"Timid box ticking"? It did what it needed to do as a proof of concept.
 

Richard Scott

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What is often carefully not mentioned in these arguments is the CO2 emitted in the manufacture of petroleum products, not to mention the devastation caused by ‘mining’ crude oil, then subsequently refining and transporting it.
This is true but that doesn't make electric cars green and solution to all our problems or anything with batteries for that matter. Battery power (and hydrogen) are seen as some kind of pollution free way to allow people to get around without having a conscience and it just isn't true.
 

zwk500

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A Newark to Doncaster via Lincoln would definitely be in range of a 1MWh battery. Do LNER ever do this diversion? I know their predecessors did Grantham -Doncaster via Sleaford and Lincoln.
I've been on an VTEC HST that did Doncaster-Newark via the Lincoln avoiding line, after the wires had got wrapped around a 91's pantograph north of Retford. Given LNER run all-day Newark-Lincoln and definitely sign Lincoln-Doncaster, I'd be surprised if they didn't have some way of keeping up knowledge over the avoiding curve, or reverse in Lincoln.
 

Jozhua

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I think it's good, but I worry that the big-brains in the DaFT will see this as an alternative to electrification.

The focus should be on extending OLE to places like Bristol and Exeter/Plymouth, then having batteries as an option to run services that perhaps go beyond those areas.

Battery technology is at best going to improve maybe 50% by 2050...wether that's enough to get a train 200 miles at 125mph, who knows.

This is true but that doesn't make electric cars green and solution to all our problems or anything with batteries for that matter. Battery power (and hydrogen) are seen as some kind of pollution free way to allow people to get around without having a conscience and it just isn't true.
Yeah, I mean cars are still going to have quite significant life-cycle costs in terms of materials and the safety/congestion issues aren't going to go away!

But, that doesn't mean we shouldn't have electric cars. We can reduce the need for everyone to own a car with better public transport, and electrify the cars of those who still need to drive.
 
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In the cold light of day just taking Carbon Dioxide emissions into account it actually isn't that hard. A lot of Carbon dioxide emitted in the manufacture and recycling of batteries not to mention the devastation caused by mining lithium. These so called green alternatives certainly aren't as green as some people would have you believe so twisted arguments on both sides, I'm afraid.
Mining of lithium. The last time I saw a You Tube Video decrying it, it showed a pirate cobalt mine in West Africa run by Chinese overseers. Lithium, which is very plentiful, can be obtained very responsibly, from salt flats. It does involve the use of lots of water, but the resultant product is long lasting, can be used for much longer than it's original intended purpose as an energy storage medium, and is still much less harmful than using internal combustion engines for transport. Electrification of transport means vehicles can use power generated by several means, be it fossil fuelled or renewable sources.
We know far more now about how important environmental responsibility is. We can better regulate the industry. My worry is the likes of Trump who do not care about the damage they cause. Who de-fund the science being developed in places like MIT and Caltec. In 2005, 2008 and 2010 I personally saw the damage being caused by fracking for oil and gas in the USA. It was appalling. In parts of Windsor, Colorado the mains water was so contaminated with benzene peoples taps were sealed and all water, for washing and drinking shipped in by tankers. At the same time MIT in Boston were demonstrating technology that had the potential to turn nearly every dwelling in the USA into a mini power station, with zero emissions at the point of generation. We get millions of megawatts of free energy every day through nature. We just need to harness it. So MIT copied nature, Artificial Photosynthesis coupled with Vanadium batteries using local grids was one possible solution and trials were underway on several test sites in the USA, Canada and Mexico.
You will always get carbon emissions at the point of manufacture, or where raw materials are processed, but EVs and hopefully HPVs do not poison the air at the point of use.
I work on a diesel train depot. It costs millions just to manage the fuel and the subsequent emissions. Our staff have their health damaged, the waste streams take a lot of managing, the maintenance of interceptors that prevent oil, fuel and coolant getting into the groundwater or local rivers is massive. It takes 6 articulated road tankers a day to keep the diesel tanks topped up.
 

The Ham

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Yeah, I mean cars are still going to have quite significant life-cycle costs in terms of materials and the safety/congestion issues aren't going to go away!

But, that doesn't mean we shouldn't have electric cars. We can reduce the need for everyone to own a car with better public transport, and electrify the cars of those who still need to drive

Travel should go through this decision tree:
- do we need to travel, if not then don't. (e.g. should I be looking to WFH more of I'm able or do I really need to go to the shops today and tomorrow?)
- if we need to travel is it suitable to walk it & if its not could there be something I could change to make it so that it was?
- if not could we cycle it & if its not could there be something I could change to make it so that it was?
- if not could we use public transport & if its not could there be something I could change to make it so that it was?
(By this point in the tree it should be theoretically possible that we've covered most of the travel carried out by most of the people).
- if none of those modes are practicable, could I share a vehicle with others to reduce the numbers of vehicles on the roads?
- then and only then drive

The problem is that rarely do we, as a nation, run through the questions and we often just jump in the car as we are lazy in our thinking as well as being fairly lazy in our actions.

For instance, do you really need to drive to a supermarket to get an extra pint or two of milk? Yes the cost is the milk is cheaper, but if you didn't drive a mile there and back (saving ~20p) it might be cheaper to walk to the local shop/garage and pay the higher price on the milk. Even if it's not cheaper, there's probably not much in it, which wouldn't be that big a deal for small top up shopping which should be fairly infrequent.

Now whilst there'll be some who wouldn't be able to walk/cycle/use public transport for the majority of their travel (especially if they can increase the amount that they WFH) rather than drive, a lot of them will be within groups which make up small percentages of the population.

For instance, those with disabilities (and many still can, for example hand cycles, mobility scooters, etc.) make up about 6%, those classed as living in a rural settlement (government definition of a population of less than 10,000; even then I do in a village of 9,000 and I've got the option of an hourly bus and a twice hourly train service) make up ~15% of the population.

Now I accept that is simplistic, in that you can't get to everywhere within a reasonable timeframe (for instance my wife's work would take 2 hours to get to by public transport) and the change needed to make that viable by public transport would be to move (then the problem is that closer houses would be much more expensive and would mean that I then couldn't walk/cycle to work).

However, by WFH an average of 1 day a week (she only works 3 days a week anyway) and limiting as much of our other travel to walking/cycling as possible, we only own one car and the miles we do in that are below average (average per car is ~10,000 miles, average per person is 6,500 miles).

If my wife changed jobs, so could walk, cycle or use public transport, then we would probably not really need to own a car (although would still need to hire a car for visiting family).

Often there's one or two main journeys which are why people keep a car. Given the ability to have supermarket deliveries for the big and heavy stuff (which gets delivered to at least your front door, so less heavy lifting than going and getting it yourself) then even that 1990's justification for car ownership isn't as strong as it used to be.

Yes there's some journeys which you can't do, for instance going to the household waste centre, without a vehicle. However, how often do you really do that trip (I've not been for the whole of 2020 and I've taken all the tiles off my bathroom walls, we just put a some in the bin each week)? Chances are you could get rid of most stuff in another way if you needed to.

Coming onto the main subject of the thread, having a OHLE/Diesel/Battery train is going to be, for the vast majority who use it, more environmentally friendly than nearly any alternative mode of travel that they could use instead of using it (nearly any, as EV's may win out if it's a daily trip with multiple people in the vehicle, likewise a very short trip which could otherwise be cycled wouldn't be better by train).

Yes there's a risk that electrification is delayed on the route, however there's still going to be a need for a lot more than there currently is before the gaps are short enough not to need the diesel engines. Even then chances are the case for shortening those gaps more would likely be fairly high.

What it may well allow is a faster roll out of electrification, in that it could be possible to have the wires up but they don't quite have enough grid feeds to run all the trains without help.

I'll give you an example, Weymouth, that's limited on the number of EMU's which can be running at any one time, if we had trains with a battery boost then chances are you could run more trains.

Now if we can reduce the number of grid feeds on some of our more rural lines then it could allow them to have the wires installed more cheaply than would otherwise be the case. It could also allow them to be added in at a later date, so that the delivery of grid feeds want such a time critical element of the project (although given the amount of planning required to deliver electrification, that's likely to generally be less of an issue).

Yes batteries aren't great environmentally, but then it's better to build a few and put them in trains than thousands and put them in cars (even if the train battery is much bigger). Especially if they are only being used for parts of the journey being made by the train rather than all of way as it's the case with cars.

Such improvements should further reduce the need for so much diesel use within the railways, further improving the carbon emissions so that the average starts to beat (rather than the 2019 figures where they were broadly matching) the per person per km emissions of EV's (however that still smashes the average by road vehicles, even if you include emissions produced by cycles within those numbers).

It's likely, with everything (even with fairly limited electrification beyond what's already announced), that by 2030 rail should be able to be beating (as an average) EV's on emissions on a per person per mile basis.

Whilst there's likely to be still quite a lot of travel on diesel trains at that time, few using such services would actually be better off (in emission terms) from not using rail. As there's likely to be some travel that they do by rail which would be using electric (including battery) as the main power source, which would fairly rapidly reduce the per mile emissions. As well as the fact that they are more likely to walk/cycle the remainder of there travel than someone with a car, meaning that their overall travel emissions are likely to be lower overall.
 

43096

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The cynic in me also thinks that some rolling stock engineers don’t like the principle as a) they would prefer straight electrification as it means less for them to worry about, or b) batteries means fewer engines to play with, or c) both.
The flip side is that the infrastructure engineers see battery, hydrogen and whatever other bionic duckweed alternatives rear their heads, as a way of avoiding their part in decarbonising the railway. The cynic in me suggests it is buck passing to the operators: “not my problem”.

Electrification is the most efficient way of powering the railway - get on with it and stop making excuses!
 

reddragon

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In the cold light of day just taking Carbon Dioxide emissions into account it actually isn't that hard. A lot of Carbon dioxide emitted in the manufacture and recycling of batteries not to mention the devastation caused by mining lithium. These so called green alternatives certainly aren't as green as some people would have you believe so twisted arguments on both sides, I'm afraid.

Don't be fooled by the oil industry!

The devastation caused by oil extraction, transportation & refinement dwarves that of battery production per car and the amount of cobalt used to refine oil into fuel is greater than that needed in a car battery just over a car life, ignoring the secondary storage use of a battery..

The difference? Oil one made is burnt. The batteries last 25 years and can be recycled.
 

Bald Rick

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The flip side is that the infrastructure engineers see battery, hydrogen and whatever other bionic duckweed alternatives rear their heads, as a way of avoiding their part in decarbonising the railway. The cynic in me suggests it is buck passing to the operators: “not my problem”.

Actually the infrastructure engineers are also quite keen on electrification.

It is the economists who want to see the best value for money solution. Batteries will be that in some cases. Therefore it needs testing. That should not stop electrification of routes with high speed / high traffic flows, as indeed is happening (albeit not visibly, much, yet)
 

reddragon

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The Toyota Prius mild hybrid, whatever you think of the car, has worked so well it is the world best seller, without OLE or a plug. Hybrid buses in London are much cheaper to run and maintain, trams with batteries for OLE gaps work.

The Hitachi 800 series is capable of conversion easily. Legislation requires decarbonisation and clean running in city areas making new trains such as the 800/801/802 etc the ideal first choice to test.

Technology already allows all passenger trains to be converted to electric with batteries & top up points, so being cheaper than full OLE that will happen over the next 10 years or so with diesels meeting bans like the end of mk1 stock or access requirements.

Freight is a whole different matter as technology does not yet provide a solution but it can provide improvement.

This is true but that doesn't make electric cars green and solution to all our problems or anything with batteries for that matter. Battery power (and hydrogen) are seen as some kind of pollution free way to allow people to get around without having a conscience and it just isn't true.
Would you buy an older more expensive item because the newer cheaper one isn't 100% better? No you invest in what is best value for you.

Electric is many times cleaner & easier to maintain than diesel and of course cheaper to own & operate, so you switch. OLE isn't going to happen everywhere or as fast as needed, so you get the next best option as in batteries now that they are cost effective and work as required.
 

Minstral25

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The Toyota Prius mild hybrid, whatever you think of the car, has worked so well it is the world best seller, without OLE or a plug. Hybrid buses in London are much cheaper to run and maintain, trams with batteries for OLE gaps work.

A Toyota Hybrid is an Internal Combustion Engine with a large battery storage. All the power has to come from fossil fuels and there is a lot of carbon in the exhaust. What Toyota have done well is to market an alternative (and to be fair Fuel efficient) car as green when it isn't. Similar with Hybrid buses - they are still basically polluting ICE's albeit less polluting than pure diesel equivalents.

The small advantage of an 802 Hybrid is that some of the Battery power comes from Overhead lines which can be supplied by Green electricity.

Expansion of OLE to use renewable energy sources is really the only true green way but maybe this can be done with leaving gaps where Battery Storage power can be used. One way might be power gaps at major stations to avoid complex expensive wiring and then install OLE only on long two track stretches to allow recharging of batteries for gapped station areas. Could this be a policy to create be a cheaper way to expand OLE.
 

Dunnyrail

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One of the things not mentioned in this thread is that with a ‘last mile battery’ or whatever one could reduce the cost of Electrification projects by not needing to put up overhead into Depots, a not inconsiderable cost. Though I suspect one road in the Workshop may need overhead for testing after maintenance has been carried out.
 

reddragon

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A Toyota Hybrid is an Internal Combustion Engine with a large battery storage. All the power has to come from fossil fuels and there is a lot of carbon in the exhaust. What Toyota have done well is to market an alternative (and to be fair Fuel efficient) car as green when it isn't. Similar with Hybrid buses - they are still basically polluting ICE's albeit less polluting than pure diesel equivalents.

The small advantage of an 802 Hybrid is that some of the Battery power comes from Overhead lines which can be supplied by Green electricity.

Expansion of OLE to use renewable energy sources is really the only true green way but maybe this can be done with leaving gaps where Battery Storage power can be used. One way might be power gaps at major stations to avoid complex expensive wiring and then install OLE only on long two track stretches to allow recharging of batteries for gapped station areas. Could this be a policy to create be a cheaper way to expand OLE.
I agree.

In China, before batteries developed as well as they are now their buses were still electric, running on trolley wire in town on that network which already existed but for out of town they had power charge points at bus stops. Instead of batteries they used capacitors which charge up instantly and get the bus at least 2 stops down the road.

We hear a lot about batteries, but ultra-capacitors are the next big step. Batteries are relatively slow to charge, but as the Tesla M3 or Porsche Taycan show, not that slow and hold the charge well over long periods. Capacitors are much cheaper to make, can charge instantly but historically only held 5% of the energy of a similar battery. The development in this area is very rapid and already there is a motorbike with a hybrid battery - capacitor system with capacitor power per kilo catching up with batteries. Expect all EVs to have them in 5 years or so to support the battery & charging. Their advantages or instant charge / discharge without any losses (batteries loose c 10% each way) and very low cost to produce. Their disadvantages are inability to hold energy for a long period and currently higher weight for the same energy.

On a class 802, the ability to pick up power for the train in seconds, to act as a power interface between energy use and the battery is a game changer. Already a capacitor was used to power a mobile phone for 10 days in use day & night, so these advances will sooner or later reach the market.

It is proven that a Capacitor can in theory hold many times more energy than a battery and this has been demonstrated in a lab at up to 1000 times normal levels, that's 1000 x 5% of a battery so 50x a battery. When & if it will roll out I don't know, but the first EV as in a motor bike is a start.

This tech may enable electric freight locos off the OLE in 10-20 years time.
 

hwl

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What is often carefully not mentioned in these arguments is the CO2 emitted in the manufacture of petroleum products, not to mention the devastation caused by ‘mining’ crude oil, then subsequently refining and transporting it.
In Europe the CO2 equivalent from mining, refining and transporting elements (Well-to-Tank) is limited to circa 9% of the fuel energy content by the Fuel Quality Directive (2009/30). [Which has been part of UK law for a while so no changes... It also forced the lowering of UK rail diesel sulphur and PAH levels a decade ago].
The exact numbers have to be reported to DfT (and BEIS) and this effectively precludes any Canadian tar sands derived products being used in Europe /UK
This Well-to-Tank element is included in the Defra, BEIS, DfT and ORR emissions numbers.
On a parallel interesting note ORR uses grid average electricity when it would be perfectly permissible in carbon accounting terms to use values for nuclear given the supply contract, hence the ORR could never be accused of understating rail carbon emissions!
 

Richard Scott

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Don't be fooled by the oil industry!

The devastation caused by oil extraction, transportation & refinement dwarves that of battery production per car and the amount of cobalt used to refine oil into fuel is greater than that needed in a car battery just over a car life, ignoring the secondary storage use of a battery..

The difference? Oil one made is burnt. The batteries last 25 years and can be recycled.
I'm not fooled, quite aware of both sides of the argument and wasn't aiming to make oil look good., which is the point I was trying to make, there are two sides and battery technology isn't 'green' as some people would try and lead you to believe.
At the end of the day whatever we do has an impact on the environment but some are led to believe that they can save the planet by using battery power.
 

reddragon

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I'm not fooled, quite aware of both sides of the argument and wasn't aiming to make oil look good., which is the point I was trying to make, there are two sides and battery technology isn't 'green' as some people would try and lead you to believe.
At the end of the day whatever we do has an impact on the environment but some are led to believe that they can save the planet by using battery power.
My company uses a lot of power on sites and batteries are not high on their agenda as other large scale energy storage options exist for that purpose that are better.

We can only hope that the much cleaner production of batteries & capacitors develop.

In any case, batteries are already much cleaner than diesels. Diesels have reached the limit of the technology whereas energy storage is at the start with huge scope to improve.
 

hwl

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A Toyota Hybrid is an Internal Combustion Engine with a large battery storage. All the power has to come from fossil fuels and there is a lot of carbon in the exhaust. What Toyota have done well is to market an alternative (and to be fair Fuel efficient) car as green when it isn't. Similar with Hybrid buses - they are still basically polluting ICE's albeit less polluting than pure diesel equivalents.

The small advantage of an 802 Hybrid is that some of the Battery power comes from Overhead lines which can be supplied by Green electricity.

Expansion of OLE to use renewable energy sources is really the only true green way but maybe this can be done with leaving gaps where Battery Storage power can be used. One way might be power gaps at major stations to avoid complex expensive wiring and then install OLE only on long two track stretches to allow recharging of batteries for gapped station areas. Could this be a policy to create be a cheaper way to expand OLE.
NR's traction electricity contracts are already low carbon - from Sizewell, Hinkley etc...
 

jonty14

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What is often carefully not mentioned in these arguments is the CO2 emitted in the manufacture of petroleum products, not to mention the devastation caused by ‘mining’ crude oil, then subsequently refining and transporting it.
Where does the lithium come from for the batteries? It is also mined.
 

reddragon

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NR's traction electricity contracts are already low carbon - from Sizewell, Hinkley etc...

Whilst true in principal, the reality is that the actual carbon value of the electric you buy whatever the tarriff that you are on is for time of use and location of use, which at 5pm on a dark December evening in London is a high figure and on a windy day in Scotland is very low or zero.
 

jonty14

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A lot of people don't look beyond their plug socket. Where does the steel come from for wind turbines for example? Steel need fossil fuels to be produced. Every form of electricity has an environmental impact. Electric cars are not the only answer for a better environment.
 

reddragon

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Where does the lithium come from for the batteries? It is also mined.
The Lithium content of car batteries is quite low in comparison to a mobile phone or laptop.

A mobile device has a life of 2 to 5 years typically and has currently minimal recycling potential.

An EV battery has a 15 year life in a car followed by a similar life as home / grid storage making 25-30 years after which recycling is very viable. You cannot say that about oil.

The second hand value of an EV battery is very high due to their value for classic car conversions and battery upgrades on old EVs, so much so that the availability of old EV batteries for grid use has not yet arisen on a useable scale.

For a trial that will work on certain routes without timetabling impacts (see post 16 https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/battery-cl-802-trial-tri-mode.212331/post-4908738 for limitations), slightly harder to do a proper job for Newbury - Penzance.
If a hybrid car or PHEV can drive to Penzance so can a class 802 with a battery.

The battery will be used to recover energy under braking and to provide power under acceleration thus saving fuel & emissions. As simple as that.
 

hwl

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Whilst true in principal, the reality is that the actual carbon value of the electric you buy whatever the tarriff that you are on is for time of use and location of use, which at 5pm on a dark December evening in London is a high figure and on a windy day in Scotland is very low or zero.
Agreed but there has to be a mechanism in place to encourage / reward the purchase of low carbon electricity else the incentive to invest is diminished.
Electrons are theoretically fungible once in the grid but not in practice of course.
 

Domh245

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If a hybrid car or PHEV can drive to Penzance so can a class 802 with a battery.

Hybrid cars don't have near 1/3 of their range removed, and are also able to conveniently refuel at petrol stations - refuelling a train is not quite so simple...

Penzance round trips should still be feasible, but may get a little tight on fuel and require special attention to ensure that the battery unit doesn't find itself on a route where it'll run out of fuel part way through
 
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