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Battery powered EMUs

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Philip Phlopp

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Might the IPEMU be equipped to use switch between 25kV AC and 1500V or 750V DC OHL, like some continental trains/tram-trains? Then perhaps the branch terminus could be equipped with a short section of DC OHL, fed by a local 3-phase substation from the local MV distribution network. This would be less expensive than a single phase connection point direct to the Supergrid or a dedicated 25kV transmission line along the branch. The substation could have redundant transformer-rectifiers to ensure reliable charging power.

750V DC is worse. The Class 379 demonstrator had a battery pack 450kW/hr in size, to recharge a battery pack that size within an average station call of around five minutes, you need to provide around 6MW output, probably 8MW by the time losses are taken into account.
 
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Emblematic

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So that provides a useful benchmark as technology and prices develop over the next few years. BEV battery prices have fallen dramatically, from around US$1,000 per kWh in 2007 to US$300 per kWh in 2014, with prices anticipated to be under $250, and possibly as low as US$200/kWh by the end of the decade. Oil prices - anyones guess, but likely to remain volatile.
 

Dave1987

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It needs a good deal of time to recharge. That's what I was trying to say. For example, the Harwich unit has approx 15min each hour at Manningtree. That is not enough to maintain a branch shuttle. Now if it continued under the wires to Liverpool St it wouldn't be an issue.

Make that 10 mins :lol:

The drivers who drove it said it was pretty good and with some decent Eco driving 50 miles was easily achievable but it takes 2 hrs to charge from empty. With a few of them and some creative diagraming I can see battery trains operating on the likes of the Subury line in the future. There would need to be some good contingency planning though.
 

DerekC

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1.

For me I would do something like - http://www.translink.ca/en/Schedules-and-Maps/SkyTrain.aspx

Skytrain uses maglev purely as a propulsion system for wheel on rail applications. Costs a lot less than building a pure maglev and the capability can essentially be bolted onto any train (not that simple obviously)

I agree that there needs to be new ways of powering non-electrified lines, I personally would choose something different and something which is now, a proven technology

Kind of misses the point, though. The linear motor on Skytrain is just a replacement for the motor driving the wheels on a conventional electric train. It still needs electricity - in fact the linear motor is less efficient than a normal motor.
 

randyrippley

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obvious place for a battery set is Lancaster-Morecambe
Short return journey, with a pair of bay platforms at Lancaster where the unit can sit charging between runs. The return trip can only be around 12 miles or so
Whats worth remembering is that if the Southern Region could make battery haulage work at Southampton Docks in the 1950's and 60's. it should be viable now
 

snowball

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That's fantasy territory. A grid connection and feeder is typically an eight figure sum.

In another discussion on here a few months ago, somebody (replying to a point I had made about the cost of feeder stations) claimed that a mile of 25kV cable running on wooden poles across fields costs orders of magnitude less than electrifying a mile of railway.

So if you wanted to have a charging post at the terminus of a branch, perhaps you could feed it from the main line via such a connection without electrifying the branch.
 

Emblematic

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Aside from BEMUs, something along the lines of class 88, with batteries replacing the diesel motor for freight terminals and branches, would seem ideal once the main freight routes are wired and the price of batteries is right.
Similarly, replacing the donkey engine on the electric IEPs would seem feasible. Better in some respects, as the batteries could be evenly distributed along the train, and less maintenance is needed. Potentially this limp-home option could also be fitted to other units, as it could fit in whatever space is available.
 

Greybeard33

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750V DC is worse. The Class 379 demonstrator had a battery pack 450kW/hr in size, to recharge a battery pack that size within an average station call of around five minutes, you need to provide around 6MW output, probably 8MW by the time losses are taken into account.
5 minutes for a full recharge?! I was thinking of a route like, for example, Manchester Airport to Barrow-in-Furness. Less than 60 miles off the wires from Carnforth to Barrow and back, with typically a 30 minute layover at Barrow. The substation at Barrow would only need the capacity to supply hotel power and give the batteries a partial top-up. Similar size to the multitude of substations on the 3rd rail network. The diagram would have several hours under the 25kV wires from Carnforth to Manchester and back during which the batteries would be fully recharged.
 

NotATrainspott

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Might the IPEMU be equipped to use switch between 25kV AC and 1500V or 750V DC OHL, like some continental trains/tram-trains? Then perhaps the branch terminus could be equipped with a short section of DC OHL, fed by a local 3-phase substation from the local MV distribution network. This would be less expensive than a single phase connection point direct to the Supergrid or a dedicated 25kV transmission line along the branch. The substation could have redundant transformer-rectifiers to ensure reliable charging power.

Realistically, it's cheaper to do a Paisley Canal and put up non-standard 25kV AC OHLE. Most of the costs of electrification will be in doing only a small number of things, such as rebuilding bridges or lowering tracks. If you're lucky, then any sections where it is impossible to have the overhead wires powered up will be short enough and in the right place for trains just to coast through. If not, then by fitting only a small fraction of the battery capacity that is needed for a proper IPEMU, you could have enough power to get a train moving. Even if there's only enough power and energy available to make a train trundle along at 20mph for a few hundred metres that would be enough to get through almost every forseeable obstacle to electrification on most branch lines. The 25kV feed can just be diverted to run through an insulated cable, so gaps in the powered OHLE won't require any extra feeder stations. If in future the line needs to be revisited to make the OHLE properly standards-compliant, e.g. for electric freight, then so be it.
 

edwin_m

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The substation at Barrow would only need the capacity to supply hotel power and give the batteries a partial top-up. Similar size to the multitude of substations on the 3rd rail network.

However it would still have to supply the maximum current that one train can take, so as to get the maximum charge into the battery. That is what determines the rating of the substation, give or take heating issues, even if it is only used for a few minutes each hour.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That's fantasy territory. A grid connection and feeder is typically an eight figure sum.

Has anyone looked at whether there would be any saving if the current was limited to what one train could take, which would be a lot less than a standard feeder station? My gut feeling is "not much" but it would be good to know for sure!
 

SpacePhoenix

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obvious place for a battery set is Lancaster-Morecambe
Short return journey, with a pair of bay platforms at Lancaster where the unit can sit charging between runs. The return trip can only be around 12 miles or so
Whats worth remembering is that if the Southern Region could make battery haulage work at Southampton Docks in the 1950's and 60's. it should be viable now

How much would it cost to just install overhead along that branch (could it all be done with a single feed taken off the mainline)?
 

Monarch010

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As I see it, one of the advantages of battery EMUs on rural branch lines would be to avoid the intrusive appearance of OLE infrastructure, particularly on viaducts which really do not look good when festooned with supports and cables.
 

Deepgreen

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As I see it, one of the advantages of battery EMUs on rural branch lines would be to avoid the intrusive appearance of OLE infrastructure, particularly on viaducts which really do not look good when festooned with supports and cables.

Much though I support your view, it is the case that, except where forced to by specific heritage requirements (e.g. Berwick's Royal Border Bridge), visual intrusion/appearance is the last consideration (if at all) of NR. Their only interest will be the cost-effectiveness of the installation.
 

Philip Phlopp

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In another discussion on here a few months ago, somebody (replying to a point I had made about the cost of feeder stations) claimed that a mile of 25kV cable running on wooden poles across fields costs orders of magnitude less than electrifying a mile of railway.

So if you wanted to have a charging post at the terminus of a branch, perhaps you could feed it from the main line via such a connection without electrifying the branch.

You could run a 25kV supply (plus a -25kV ATF supply) on a wooden pole across a field, that's the least silly suggestion we've had when it comes to battery powered units, but there are issues with taking 25kV supplies outwith the railway, which would get expensive and complicated, with wayleaves to be agreed by the railway authority and the land owners.

The leasing charges for the battery pack are in the region of a 2 car DMU per month, and when you start adding in multiple diagrams and maintenance spares, adding together the costs of running 25kV to the end of a branch line, it all gets very expensive very quickly.

Furrer+Frey and Railbaar have been hawking around their quick charge stations now for a number of years, they're getting a bit of interest from bus companies but little interest from train companies and rolling stock builders.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Realistically, it's cheaper to do a Paisley Canal and put up non-standard 25kV AC OHLE. Most of the costs of electrification will be in doing only a small number of things, such as rebuilding bridges or lowering tracks. If you're lucky, then any sections where it is impossible to have the overhead wires powered up will be short enough and in the right place for trains just to coast through. If not, then by fitting only a small fraction of the battery capacity that is needed for a proper IPEMU, you could have enough power to get a train moving. Even if there's only enough power and energy available to make a train trundle along at 20mph for a few hundred metres that would be enough to get through almost every forseeable obstacle to electrification on most branch lines. The 25kV feed can just be diverted to run through an insulated cable, so gaps in the powered OHLE won't require any extra feeder stations. If in future the line needs to be revisited to make the OHLE properly standards-compliant, e.g. for electric freight, then so be it.

Paisley Canal isn't non standard, it's essentially conventional BR Mark 3 OLE, the only change is that it's setup with a non standard wire height, there's nothing on the route which can't be converted to the normal wire height in due course, subsequent to bridge clearance, track lowering and platform height adjustments being carried out. That would, in turn, provide an electrified route through to the Hawkshead Oil Terminal (though it's not as yet wired, so shunting would be needed).

The components on the masts and portals would simply need adjusted to the corrected wire height, there's nothing that's set that actually limits the wire height.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
However it would still have to supply the maximum current that one train can take, so as to get the maximum charge into the battery. That is what determines the rating of the substation, give or take heating issues, even if it is only used for a few minutes each hour.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Has anyone looked at whether there would be any saving if the current was limited to what one train could take, which would be a lot less than a standard feeder station? My gut feeling is "not much" but it would be good to know for sure!

The saving would be minimal, and provides absolutely no future proofing at all, if you're going to install feeders at the end of each branchline, common sense dictates you make sure they're sufficient to provide cross feeding in the event of an adjacent feeder failing, and have sufficient future proofing to cope with future traffic demands.

As I say, to rapidly charge battery packs up, you need to provide significant power, well in excess of what a single multiple unit would require if it was being fed via OLE. 8MW for a rapid charge of a 450kW battery pack isn't unreasonable if you want to charge it during a station stop.

The idea of more gently recharging over 30 minutes is fine, that only needs 900kW of power, but who is going to realistically diagram an expensive EMU with battery packs costing the equivalent of another EMU or DMU to sit for 30 minutes just to allow them to charge up ?
 

Greybeard33

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The idea of more gently recharging over 30 minutes is fine, that only needs 900kW of power, but who is going to realistically diagram an expensive EMU with battery packs costing the equivalent of another EMU or DMU to sit for 30 minutes just to allow them to charge up ?
My point was that some branches are short enough, or nearly short enough, to make the round trip from the main line without needing a recharge. But what may be needed is to supply hotel power (particularly aircon) externally at the branch terminus, so that the batteries are not drained during the layover, reducing range. If the supply can also give the batteries a low rate top-up charge during the layover, say 10-20% of capacity, that is a bonus.

Agreed the best long term solution is to electrify such branches, but at the present rate of progress that could take 30 years or more. Meanwhile the alternative to IPEMUs may be DMUs running under the wires for most of the journey, to provide the direct services everyone demands.

From Dec 2017, only one of the seven hourly services on the Chat Moss line will be EMU-operated (the Liverpool-Airport stopper). One DMU will run under the wires all the way up the WCML to Carnforth or Oxenholme (the other long-term DMUs being Bradford to Liverpool and Chester, and Manchester to N Wales - the 2tph TPE 185s will sooner or later be replaced by bi-modes). Is this the best way to get a return on the investment in NW electrification?
 

edwin_m

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Meanwhile the alternative to IPEMUs may be DMUs running under the wires for most of the journey, to provide the direct services everyone demands.

But that comment applies to a through working onto a non-electrified branch. If it spends most of its journey under the wires an IPEMU may be suitable because it can recharge enough during this period to make use of the short non-electrified section.

If we're thinking of a shuttle service on a non-electrified branch then this doesn't apply. A DMU on such a service would only be running under the wires during (probably) a single journey each day to get it from and to the depot.

From Dec 2017, only one of the seven hourly services on the Chat Moss line will be EMU-operated (the Liverpool-Airport stopper). One DMU will run under the wires all the way up the WCML to Carnforth or Oxenholme (the other long-term DMUs being Bradford to Liverpool and Chester, and Manchester to N Wales - the 2tph TPE 185s will sooner or later be replaced by bi-modes). Is this the best way to get a return on the investment in NW electrification?

Without dredging back to check the introduction date of the bi-modes, I think it's only a year or two after 2017 so this isn't quite as bad as it sounds. Once this happens I think the western half of the route will be all-electric.
 
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lejog

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Without dredging back to check the introduction date of the bi-modes, I think it's only a year or two after 2017 so this isn't quite as bad as it sounds. Once this happens I think the western half of the route will be all-electric.

Bradford to Liverpool electric? And the eastern end will still be >50% diesel even after the completion of the current electrification program.
 

edwin_m

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Bradford to Liverpool electric? And the eastern end will still be >50% diesel even after the completion of the current electrification program.

OK, Bradford to Liverpool would still be diesel - I lose track of the twists and turns of the various franchise specs, and also of the reason why we got into this discussion anyway! Given that Northern isn't getting bi-modes (and the only existing design wouldn't be suitable for non-intercity duties anyway) then some amount of running under the wires is inevitable unless you force everyone to change trains at obscure junction stations.
 

Greybeard33

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OK, Bradford to Liverpool would still be diesel - I lose track of the twists and turns of the various franchise specs, and also of the reason why we got into this discussion anyway! Given that Northern isn't getting bi-modes (and the only existing design wouldn't be suitable for non-intercity duties anyway) then some amount of running under the wires is inevitable unless you force everyone to change trains at obscure junction stations.
e.g. Manchester Victoria and Lancaster! :lol:
 

randyrippley

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How much would it cost to just install overhead along that branch (could it all be done with a single feed taken off the mainline)?

If you remember the previous history of Lancaster and Morecambe electrification, it shouldn't cost a lot.....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
e.g. Manchester Victoria and Lancaster! :lol:

no - Carnforth not Lancaster! The Barrow line platforms there are electrified
 

cyclebytrain

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One thing that I keep expecting to hear battery units suggested for is DC - AC changeover (particularly during a conversion of a line from one to the other) i.e. Rather than having a dual electrified section you leave a gap that's traversed on battery power.
 

edwin_m

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One thing that I keep expecting to hear battery units suggested for is DC - AC changeover (particularly during a conversion of a line from one to the other) i.e. Rather than having a dual electrified section you leave a gap that's traversed on battery power.

In the case of the conversion from Basingstoke to Southampton (if it ever happens) this would need batteries to be fitted to each of the huge number of units that operate services through Basingstoke. All of these were designed to have a pantograph and transformer added if necessary, but none of them was designed to have a battery. So as well as the high cost of the batteries there would be a major re-design and re-build to fit them, especially as a transformer would be needed too so the batteries couldn't use the space and mountings provided for that.
 

Philip Phlopp

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In the case of the conversion from Basingstoke to Southampton (if it ever happens) this would need batteries to be fitted to each of the huge number of units that operate services through Basingstoke. All of these were designed to have a pantograph and transformer added if necessary, but none of them was designed to have a battery. So as well as the high cost of the batteries there would be a major re-design and re-build to fit them, especially as a transformer would be needed too so the batteries couldn't use the space and mountings provided for that.

We've got AC to DC changeover down to a fine art now, it's nothing that can't be handled with relative ease.
 

HSTEd

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If all you want to support are 2 car EMUs then a minimum spec installation would probably be third rail.

You can build a few hundred kilowatt substation that doesn't even require an 11kV connection.
 

lejog

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From Dec 2017, only one of the seven hourly services on the Chat Moss line will be EMU-operated (the Liverpool-Airport stopper). One DMU will run under the wires all the way up the WCML to Carnforth or Oxenholme (the other long-term DMUs being Bradford to Liverpool and Chester, and Manchester to N Wales - the 2tph TPE 185s will sooner or later be replaced by bi-modes). Is this the best way to get a return on the investment in NW electrification?

OK, Bradford to Liverpool would still be diesel - I lose track of the twists and turns of the various franchise specs, and also of the reason why we got into this discussion anyway! Given that Northern isn't getting bi-modes (and the only existing design wouldn't be suitable for non-intercity duties anyway) then some amount of running under the wires is inevitable unless you force everyone to change trains at obscure junction stations.

No the point is you can't accept public investment under the Northern Hub to improve connectivity without running diesels under the wires while the network in the North is only part electrified. And the Northern Hub budget is four or five times greater than the Chat Moss electrification budget.

Sorry for going way off topic, I'll shut up now.;)
 

pemma

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while the network in the North is only part electrified.

I think it's unlikely the network in the North will be fully electrified in most of our lifetimes. The long term rolling stock strategy mentioned a new order of self-powered trains in CP7 as some lines as likely to never be electrified and if new self-powered trains are being ordered in CP7 then it could be 2065 before they are life-expired. Maybe in the 2050s they'll be a review to decide whether it's best to go for a 100% electrified network or a further order of trains which can work off the wires?
 

Greybeard33

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no - Carnforth not Lancaster! The Barrow line platforms there are electrified
Carnforth has not been a major interchange since the main line platforms were demolished in 1970. Currently most services from Barrow to Manchester Airport involve a change at Lancaster not Carnforth. From Dec 2017 there will be 8 direct services per day from Barrow to the Airport via Wigan North Western (plus 4 from Windermere). It is these that will perpetuate DMU running under the wires despite the NW Triangle electrification.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No the point is you can't accept public investment under the Northern Hub to improve connectivity without running diesels under the wires while the network in the North is only part electrified. And the Northern Hub budget is four or five times greater than the Chat Moss electrification budget.
I do not think direct services from Barrow to Manchester Airport were originally to be a Northern Hub output. Nor were direct services between Bradford and Liverpool. The former was a requirement DfT/Rail North put in the Northern ITT following the stakeholder consultation exercise. The latter was not an ITT requirement - presumably part of the Arriva bid was to extend the Bradford service from Manchester to Liverpool and designate it as an additional Northern Connect.
 

pemma

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I do not think direct services from Barrow to Manchester Airport were originally to be a Northern Hub output. Nor were direct services between Bradford and Liverpool. The former was a requirement DfT/Rail North put in the Northern ITT following the stakeholder consultation exercise. The latter was not an ITT requirement - presumably part of the Arriva bid was to extend the Bradford service from Manchester to Liverpool and designate it as an additional Northern Connect.

HLOS for CP5 proposed half-hourly Liverpool-Airport via Chat Moss service and half-hourly Liverpool-Sheffield via Warrington as an illustrative option. No mention of any regular Cumbria services (it was done before Windermere electrification has been given the green light.)

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...hment_data/file/3643/illustrative-options.pdf
 

Grimsby town

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Battery EMU's would be perfect for local services around Nottingham once (if) the MML is electrified. Currently the Newark stopper is linked to the Nottingham to Matlock service but this could be divided and added to the Nottingham to Leicester stopper. This would mean that the train would stay under the wires for around 2 hours between Nottingham and Leicester and back again especially if the train waited at Nottingham for 10 minutes. The distance not under the wires to Newark is probably around a 35 mile round trip so a battery should be fine.

The Matlock Branch could also use battery EMU's. They would run under the wires between Nottingham and Ambergate Junction and then only have to run a 20 mile round trip to Matlock.
 

lejog

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I do not think direct services from Barrow to Manchester Airport were originally to be a Northern Hub output. Nor were direct services between Bradford and Liverpool. The former was a requirement DfT/Rail North put in the Northern ITT following the stakeholder consultation exercise. The latter was not an ITT requirement - presumably part of the Arriva bid was to extend the Bradford service from Manchester to Liverpool and designate it as an additional Northern Connect.

The Bradford to Liverpool service was not a mandatory output from the Northern Hub as the Bradford to Manchester Airport service was. However the Manchester Hub Study, Executive Summary says:
This will provide the opportunity to ... provide direct journeys from Bradford, Halifax and the Calder Valley to Manchester Airport and destinations west of Manchester
and with Victoria becoming a through station, the example timetable showed 4tph to Manchester Airport, Liverpool, Wigan and Preston. There were contradictions in the Northern ITT documents in that the Franchise Consultation Response stated:
Manchester-Halifax-Bradford: We have specified one extra Northern train per hour on this route by December 2019, making a total of three services per hour.
while the ITT and Service Specification mentioned nothing about a third train, specifying only 2tph extended to Manchester Airport and Chester. You would have expected bidders to seek clarification on whether this third tph was required or not and if so where the DfT expected it to go west of Manchester. Whether this contradiction was sorted out at the bid stage or during contract negotiation, the result was a third tph to Liverpool.

So as far as Calder Valley services go (including the via Brighouse service) the only major difference from the Hub example timetable is a service to Chester rather than Preston.
 
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