BBC this morning - North v South Journey Comparision

[dangie]

On BBC Breakfast this morning they were doing an article about the North vs South divide.

They said that the North has poorer transport links compared to the South,

The example they gave was a train journey from Liverpool to Sheffield takes about an hour and forty minutes, whereas a journey from London to Swindon, approximately the same distance, takes about an hour.

Hardly a true comparison. Like comparing apples with broccoli.

 

[AndrewP]

On BBC Breakfast this morning they were doing an article about the North vs South divide.

They said that the North has poorer transport links compared to the South,

The example they gave was a train journey from Liverpool to Sheffield takes about an hour and forty minutes, whereas a journey from London to Swindon, approximately the same distance, takes about an hour.

Hardly a true comparison. Like comparing apples with broccoli.

Well that's the BBC - never let facts get in the way of an agenda.

If they wanted to present the north in a good light (it will never happen due to their institutional bias) they could have used York to Newcastle as a better comparison with London to Swindon

 

[urbophile]

I don't think highlighting the discrepancies between north and south are 'presenting the north' in a bad light, in the sense of putting it down. More like campaigning for the north to get fairer treatment.

And actually the comparison is a fair one. The links between major cities in the north (they could have cited Manchester and Leeds, Bradford and just about anywhere, Liverpool and Hull, and many others) are far poorer than the links between them and London. York to Newcastle does well because it's on a major route from London; Swindon, no way a 'major city', does well for the same reason.

It's not so much a north-south divide as the grossly disproportionate dominance of London. Transport links have always been London-centred but the imbalance has got worse and worse in recent years. The 'Northern Powerhouse' will never be a reality until the government realise this and actively encourage jobs and housing away from the overheated metropolis*. HS2 will only exacerbate the problem.

*In other words, it will never be a reality.

 

[notlob.divad]

Well that's the BBC - never let facts get in the way of an agenda.

If they wanted to present the north in a good light (it will never happen due to their institutional bias) they could have used York to Newcastle as a better comparison with London to Swindon

If you had argued Oxford - Southampton vs Liverpool - Sheffield, then apart from the vast difference in the populations of the places, you might have a point.

As has been pointed out, the dominance is not necessarily in North - South but lines To / From London rather than lines that go no where near London

 

[Camden]

It's an incomplete picture. Very few people would commute an hour and forty minutes between Sheffield and Liverpool, whereas for many people an appalling 2 hour plus commute into London each day is the norm.

Also, end to end journey times using only one line are rarely going to be fair comparisons because London does have more frequent services and more services that connect via various routes, and so if you want to get from say Hemel to west London you could do that in less time than from Bolton in north Manchester to Allerton in south Liverpool.

So an unequal comparison in all respects.

A big question for people in the north should be that, given the lengthy London commute times and the cost of it, and that many people in the north would baulk at living in the cramped and relatively impoverished conditions of London that many modest wages bring, is it really the model to idolise??

Of course there needs to be improvements in some areas, but heaven help the north if the ambition is to turn it into London. One is enough!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd say the North West certainly has a more useful rail network from everywhere to everywhere than the South East does. The rail network in the SE is good for getting to/from London primarily - public transport outside London is largely terrible for other journeys. Whereas the North West's network is relatively slow but very comprehensive, even in very rural areas.

 

[DelW]

And actually the comparison is a fair one.

Not really fair - Swindon is on probably the fastest main line route out of London.

For other London-centric comparisons - London to Portsmouth Harbour is slightly shorter than Liverpool to Sheffield and the fastest off-peak trains take alternately 1h 36m or 1h 38m, while the stoppers take 1h 49m (from Portsmouth and Southsea). London to Hastings is only around 65 miles, yet average train times are 1h 38m and the fastest 1h 33m.

Not much sign of a north-south divide there, or that all to and from London routes are faster than cross country. I'm sure there are many similar examples.

 

[urbophile]

Not really fair - Swindon is on probably the fastest main line route out of London.

For other London-centric comparisons - London to Portsmouth Harbour is slightly shorter than Liverpool to Sheffield and the fastest off-peak trains take alternately 1h 36m or 1h 38m, while the stoppers take 1h 49m (from Portsmouth and Southsea). London to Hastings is only around 65 miles, yet average train times are 1h 38m and the fastest 1h 33m.

Not much sign of a north-south divide there, or that all to and from London routes are faster than cross country. I'm sure there are many similar examples.

Fair point.

 

[simonw]

Well that's the BBC - never let facts get in the way of an agenda.

If they wanted to present the north in a good light (it will never happen due to their institutional bias) they could have used York to Newcastle as a better comparison with London to Swindon

The article was actually about the need to improve things in the north to help the economy. It wasn't knocking the north.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The article was actually about the need to improve things in the north to help the economy. It wasn't knocking the north.

What the north needs is a few hundred additional coaches of bi-mode EDMU. That would solve most of the issues which relate primarily to (a) overcrowding and (b) the rubbishness of Pacers.

 

[simonw]

What the north needs is a few hundred additional coaches of bi-mode EDMU. That would solve most of the issues which relate primarily to (a) overcrowding and (b) the rubbishness of Pacers.

Maybe but the article wasn't really about commuting, it was about travel times between centres of population.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe but the article wasn't really about commuting, it was about travel times between centres of population.

If that's the case, if looking at the South they need to look at some non-London journeys - I expect the North would win on a lot of these. Even a 60mph railway beats a bus service on a country lane.

 

[unlevel42]

Manchester- Sheffield
Are there any two larger cities connected by two stretches of single track?

Are there any compatible conurbations in the South connected by two stretches of single track?

 

[6Gman]

Manchester- Sheffield
Are there any two larger cities connected by two stretches of single track?

Are there any compatible conurbations in the South connected by two stretches of single track?

How long are these stretches of single track?

 

[Taunton]

The northern cities like Sheffield, Manchester, Leeds, etc all have reasonable and frequent direct services between one another. Speed and number of carriages may well be an issue, but they do have a service.

In contrast in the South-East, many journeys NOT involving going to London are impossible. Try getting from Milton Keynes to either Oxford or Cambridge.

This even applies within London, and accounts for why, contrary to popular belief, the most common form of journey-to-work there is still the car, almost wholly for those who do not work inside the Circle Line.

 

[edwin_m]

How long are these stretches of single track?

Under a mile each at a guess, but they do restrict the frequency of service and to some extent the speed. The one at Dore is supposed to be re-doubled at some point but there's little they can do about the one at Hazel Grove except send some trains on the slower route via Marple.

 

[DelW]

Manchester- Sheffield
Are there any two larger cities connected by two stretches of single track?

Are there any compatible conurbations in the South connected by two stretches of single track?

Nowhere near as large in population, but there are substantial lengths of single track (not just single lead junctions) between Salisbury, Yeovil and Exeter; Oxford, Worcester and Hereford; and (IIRC) Ipswich, Lowestoft and Great Yarmouth, all of which were once main lines. Also through the infamous tunnels on the London to Hastings line.

 

[Senex]

Under a mile each at a guess, but they do restrict the frequency of service and to some extent the speed. The one at Dore is supposed to be re-doubled at some point but there's little they can do about the one at Hazel Grove except send some trains on the slower route via Marple.

Couldn't the Hazel Grove Curve be widened on the side nearest to the LNW line if a single-line connection to/from Buxton were acceptable? Certainly it would be difficult to do anything on the graveyard side, unfortunately. I've never understood why the original design on keeping the separate up and down lines for the Buxton junction given the very awkward design that involved. And surely it must have been clear even in the 80s that the future was far more for traffic on the Sheffield line than on the Buxton line.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I don't think highlighting the discrepancies between north and south are 'presenting the north' in a bad light, in the sense of putting it down. More like campaigning for the north to get fairer treatment.

And actually the comparison is a fair one. The links between major cities in the north (they could have cited Manchester and Leeds, Bradford and just about anywhere, Liverpool and Hull, and many others) are far poorer than the links between them and London. York to Newcastle does well because it's on a major route from London; Swindon, no way a 'major city', does well for the same reason.

The comparison isn't really fair. You've got the Peak District between Sheffield and Manchester/Liverpool and immediately north of the Peak District there are the Pennines. It makes Sheffield a perfect place to use as a 'poor relation' if you choose to only quote distance and time into North West England while choosing to ignore that the terrain filling that distance does not make it easy (or desirable)to build high speed high capacity transport infrastructure.