"Be prepared to vacate the seat or purchase a first class ticket"

[AdamWW]

On a Southern train this week the automated announcements included a warning for people in first class:
"Be prepared to vacate the seat or purchase a first class ticket"

Seems a change from threatening Penalty Fares or prosecution. Is this a change of policy?

 

[MrJeeves]

Just one of the many generic announcements that the OBS can choose to play if they please. No underlying meaning to it at all.

I assume it was this?

View attachment this service has first class accomodation penalty fare.mp3

 

[AdamWW]

Just one of the many generic announcements that the OBS can choose to play if they please. No underlying meaning to it at all.

I assume it was this?

View attachment 154294

Surely it has a very clear meaning - it's OK to sit in first class and pay when challenged, and you won't be given a PF or prosecuted for doing so?

 

[RailWonderer]

Weren't they going to crack down on pointless announcements? RP officers will do their job, an automated announcer isn't going to dissuade youths or whoever tries it on. Nobody accidentally sits in first (unless on GWR on the North Downs).

 

[Sealink]

On a Southern train this week the automated announcements included a warning for people in first class:
"Be prepared to vacate the seat or purchase a first class ticket"

Seems a change from threatening Penalty Fares or prosecution. Is this a change of policy?

Probably because they declassify First Class on London metro services so people might assume (on longer routes) it's always declassified.

 

[AdamWW]

Probably because they declassify First Class on London metro services so people might assume (on longer routes) it's always declassified.

But what is the policy if someone is in first class with a second class ticket?

Penalty fare/prosecution as they're entitled to and I think as the signs on the trains say?

Or just having to buy a first class ticket as the announcement says?

I hope nobody is going to suggest it's OK to make an announcement saying that you'll just have to buy a new ticket if requested and then instead to issue a PF or worse?

 

[Horizon22]

Surely it has a very clear meaning - it's OK to sit in first class and pay when challenged, and you won't be given a PF or prosecuted for doing so?

Not necessarily. If the ticket inspector / OBS is in another part of the train, it allows people time who have made a genuine error and not paying attention (quite easy on a 377) to move accordingly.

It would be different if they were physically there telling people to move. No point causing conflict if it can be avoided.

 

[185]

pointless announcements

Hardly pointless if the staff are helpfully trying to drop a hint that a pile of penalty fares & prosecutions are currently flying towards that carriage

 

[AdamWW]

Hardly pointless if the staff are helpfully trying to drop a hint that a pile of penalty fares & prosecutions are currently flying towards that carriage

So an announcement saying "Be prepared to purchase a first class ticket" is actually a hint that you might be prosecuted?

Not necessarily. If the ticket inspector / OBS is in another part of the train, it allows people time who have made a genuine error and not paying attention (quite easy on a 377) to move accordingly.

And it tells them that if they nevertheless wish to remain there, they can just buy a new ticket.
I seem to be a minority of one here, but I can't see how it's remotely reasonable to make such an announcement then issue a PF or worse.

 

[Alex C.]

Weren't they going to crack down on pointless announcements? RP officers will do their job, an automated announcer isn't going to dissuade youths or whoever tries it on. Nobody accidentally sits in first (unless on GWR on the North Downs).

On Southern it's completely possible - I managed to do it the other day, the only difference at all is a small logo on the antimacassar and the window - other than that the seats, tables, decor is all the same and there is no physical separation from standard class. I noticed when I was getting off the train.

 

[70014IronDuke]

And it tells them that if they nevertheless wish to remain there, they can just buy a new ticket.
I seem to be a minority of one here, but I can't see how it's remotely reasonable to make such an announcement then issue a PF or worse.

Add another one to your minority. I agree 100%.

 

[chris53]

But what is the policy if someone is in first class with a second class ticket?

Penalty fare/prosecution as they're entitled to and I think as the signs on the trains say?

Or just having to buy a first class ticket as the announcement says?

I hope nobody is going to suggest it's OK to make an announcement saying that you'll just have to buy a new ticket if requested and then instead to issue a PF or worse?

So an announcement saying "Be prepared to purchase a first class ticket" is actually a hint that you might be prosecuted?


And it tells them that if they nevertheless wish to remain there, they can just buy a new ticket.
I seem to be a minority of one here, but I can't see how it's remotely reasonable to make such an announcement then issue a PF or worse.

I agree with you also

 

[winks]

Have they updated the passenger announcements/ software as they seem alot smoother and clearer?

I wouldn’t know if it’s a different lady but it certainly is an improvement

 

[jfollows]

On Southern it's completely possible - I managed to do it the other day, the only difference at all is a small logo on the antimacassar and the window - other than that the seats, tables, decor is all the same and there is no physical separation from standard class. I noticed when I was getting off the train.

Completely possible on TPE as well, there is nothing inside the train to say that it's First Class on their 802 units, and I sat in it until I twigged (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/first-class-signage-on-tpe-802-units.244254/) but before anyone asked to see my ticket, fortunately. I mean, I wasn't thinking of course, 2+1 seating should have been enough to tell me, but there's no reason someone who doesn't use trains a lot would realise.

 

[MrJeeves]

Have they updated the passenger announcements/ software as they seem alot smoother and clearer?

I wouldn’t know if it’s a different lady but it certainly is an improvement

New software on the refurbished trains, plus some tweaks to timing for the Class 387 units, but nothing that should be very significant.

Definitely not another person.

 

[Essexman]

I think there should be warning by either signs or audio (or both) that passengers in First Class without a First Class ticket may be charged an additional fee – whether a penalty fare, fine, or upgraded ticket.

So many people try it on and either get away with it for their whole journey or until asked to move which might be an hour or so.

If they thought there was a good chance of having to pay more they would be less likely to try it on.

And the guard / train manager/ revenue etc could still use discretion as to whether to apply charges.

 

[AdamWW]

I think there should be warning by either signs or audio (or both) that passengers in First Class without a First Class ticket may be charged an additional fee – whether a penalty fare, fine, or upgraded ticket.

So many people try it on and either get away with it for their whole journey or until asked to move which might be an hour or so.

If they thought there was a good chance of having to pay more they would be less likely to try it on.

And the guard / train manager/ revenue etc could still use discretion as to whether to apply charges.

I'm pretty sure there are signs on these trains threatening dire consequences for anyone trying their luck.

But since the announcements were announcing a more lenient policy, I wondered if something had changed.

I suppose I should have realised it was just the railway's common inability to provide consistent and correct information to passengers.

 

[43066]

Not necessarily. If the ticket inspector / OBS is in another part of the train, it allows people time who have made a genuine error and not paying attention (quite easy on a 377) to move accordingly.

It would be different if they were physically there telling people to move. No point causing conflict if it can be avoided.

Indeed.

So an announcement saying "Be prepared to purchase a first class ticket" is actually a hint that you might be prosecuted?

It’s a reminder that people without 1st class tickets don’t have a valid ticket for the section of the train they’re sitting in, so yes.

But since the announcements were announcing a more lenient policy, I wondered if something had changed.

They weren’t and, as you’ve said yourself, there are signs too! What an absolute non issue to create a thread about.

 

[maniacmartin]

The announcement doesn't explicitly say you won't get a PF, but it very heavily implies you can just sit in First Class and if a member of staff comes round, you can pay on board to upgrade on board, similar to LNER's Weekend First upgrades.

They should change this announcement to clarify the policy better.

 

[AdamWW]

The announcement doesn't explicitly say you won't get a PF, but it very heavily implies you can just sit in First Class and if a member of staff comes round, you can pay on board to upgrade on board, similar to LNER's Weekend First upgrades.

They should change this announcement to clarify the policy better.

Well that's certainly my view but there are clearly other ones.

The idea that one shouldn't just take announcements at face value but also go looking for any contradictory signs and then interpret the intent of the announcement accordingly seems bonkers to me.

But if the prevailing industry view is that when unclear information is provided the passenger is at fault, it might explain why the railways often do so badly at providing clear information.

 

[ComUtoR]

Listening to the announcement in the second post. It's very clear that you have to have a first class ticket to use a first class seat.

 

[Oxfordblues]

I was caught in First Class on a hopelessly-overcrowded Voyager recently. I have a bad knee and can't stand for very long. The train manager berated me for my offence, but let me stay without surcharge. He seemed to be annoyed that I hadn't asked him first!

 

[AdamWW]

Listening to the announcement in the second post. It's very clear that you have to have a first class ticket to use a first class seat.

Yes, but not that you have to have bought it beforehand.

The announcement says "[If you don't have a first class ticket]...please vacate the seat".
It could stop there.
It could go on to say "If you fail to do so, you may be liable for a penalty fare or prosecution."

But it doesn't. It finishes: "or be prepared to purchase a first class ticket."

Arguing that this isn't somehow giving permission to pay when challenged is attempting to defend the indefensible.

The railway gets lots of unjustified criticism but it does get things wrong and if those working on the railway automatically defend everything and put the blame on passengers nothing is ever going to improve, is it?

 

[43066]

Arguing that this isn't somehow giving permission to pay when challenged is attempting to defend the indefensible.

It isn’t doing that, though, it’s just confirming what the signs already make clear; namely that you need a first class ticket to be sitting there in the first place.

If this announcement applies to someone, they’re already committing an offence! So the alternative might well be no announcement, revenue jumping on and issuing penalty fares/prosecutions.

The railway gets lots of unjustified criticism but it does get things wrong and if those working on the railway automatically defend everything and put the blame on passengers nothing is ever going to improve, is it?

Fair point, and that’s not my intention, but I reckon you’re massively overthinking this one!

 

[ComUtoR]

To believe this implies that you can "pay when challenged" is the same logic that gives rise to peanuts having a label that reads "this contains nuts"

It may surprise you that quite often, the biggest critics of the railway, are those that work here.

 

[Camberman]

Wasn't there something years ago whereby at weekends you were allowed to sit in first class with a standard ticket, provided that you immediately paid £10 (I think it was) to upgrade to first so long as you did so as soon as the guard/inspector/RP person approached and before they asked to see your existing ticket?

 

[MrJeeves]

Wasn't there something years ago whereby at weekends you were allowed to sit in first class with a standard ticket, provided that you immediately paid £10 (I think it was) to upgrade to first so long as you did so as soon as the guard/inspector/RP person approached and before they asked to see your existing ticket?

There are 1st class weekend upgrades in the fares data but it's not clear if GTR still use these.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

£5 for London to Brighton! Could be worth it on a busy service...

 

[AdamWW]

It may surprise you that quite often, the biggest critics of the railway, are those that work here.

No it really wouldn't.

But I can't help wondering if that's the prevailing attitude at decision making levels. It would explain a lot.

To believe this implies that you can "pay when challenged" is the same logic that gives rise to peanuts having a label that reads "this contains nuts"

It just goes to show how different people can interpret things differently. To me, "be prepared to purchase a first class ticket" means, well, just that. Not "be prepared to be penalised or prosecuted".

 

[Krokodil]

But what is the policy if someone is in first class with a second class ticket?

Penalty fare/prosecution as they're entitled to and I think as the signs on the trains say?

Or just having to buy a first class ticket as the announcement says?

I hope nobody is going to suggest it's OK to make an announcement saying that you'll just have to buy a new ticket if requested and then instead to issue a PF or worse?

If the person checking tickets on that particular train is a guard/OBS instead of an RPI then surely charging the person for a ticket is exactly what will happen - I don't believe that they are Authorised Collectors. Of course that ticket will presumably be a single ticket with no railcard discounts applied.

 

[ComUtoR]

It just goes to show how different people can interpret things differently.

ious. I don't need to find a loophole either.

It could just as easily imply that I should buy a ticket using my phone.

Pay when challenged is not honest. It's a way to avoid paying.