Beattock Landslip disruption (21/02)

[Efini92]

I suspect this came from the union bureaucracy, who see it as another way to increase the number of members required to run the service. It's probably a disappointment to some, as it could lead to good mileage and overtime payments.

I'm surprised at the difference between how UK and USA (which I have some experience of) union dues are calculated, and the impact on operations. In the UK it is flat per member, which encourages the maximum number of members, regardless of their pay. In the USA it is a percentage of pay (compared to the UK quite substantial), which encourages the highest overall earnings, regardless of how they are generated.

There are scales within that, so union subs will differ depending on salary.

 

[Carlisle]

I'd like to think it's less mercenary than that, and was due to concerns about fatigue/attentional issues repeating the same journey multiple times in succession.

Then how on earth do TOCs with substantial short distance work like C2C, Overground, Southern, SWR or South Easten operate safely ?

 

[185143]

Then how on earth do TOCs with substantial short distance work like C2C, Overground, Southern, SWR or South Easten operate safely ?

*Stourbridge Shuttle enters the chat*

 

[AndrewE]

*Stourbridge Shuttle enters the chat*

actually one day it didn't operate safely...

 

[The Chimaera]

I wonder how a thread about a landslip has descend into another union bashing exercise? Playing to people’s prejudices perhaps?
As I said yesterday there is nothing stopping ad hoc double tripping during disruption to services in the T&C’s, at least that was my interpretation of the agreement when it was first drawn up. For reasons why more trains aren’t run north of Preston you need to ask the people in charge at Avanti and not just criticise the staff on the shop floor who are just carrying out their orders.
(Note it is possible things might have changed in the last two years since I left Avanti to it, but I doubt it)

 

[trundlewagon]

Then how on earth do TOCs with substantial short distance work like C2C, Overground, Southern, SWR or South Easten operate safely ?

Things like a limit on the amount of trips/hours spent on a certain route or the amount of 'intensive' work per diagram are common across the industry, I'd imagine but that's all a topic for another, tedious anti-worker thread...

 

[AndrewE]

I wonder how a thread about a landslip has descend into another union bashing exercise? Playing to people’s prejudices perhaps?
As I said yesterday there is nothing stopping ad hoc double tripping during disruption to services in the T&C’s, at least that was my interpretation of the agreement when it was first drawn up. For reasons why more trains aren’t run north of Preston you need to ask the people in charge at Avanti and not just criticise the staff on the shop floor who are just carrying out their orders.
(Note it is possible things might have changed in the last two years since I left Avanti to it, but I doubt it)

I am a lifelong union member and supporter, but I really don't see how not being prepared to drive the same route twice in a shift can be justified. Sometimes you have to tell a friend that they are out of line, or are exposing themselves to ridicule.

 

[185143]

I am a lifelong union member and supporter, but I really don't see how not being prepared to drive the same route twice in a shift can be justified. Sometimes you have to tell a friend that they are out of line, or are exposing themselves to ridicule.

Agreed entirely. Depends on context.

Is a Preston driver refusing to do Preston-Glasgow-Preston-Glasgow-Preston reasonable? Yes. Absolutely. That's 10 hours+ driving, excluding PNB.

Would a driver during the Covid timetables refusing to do more than one Crewe-Chester shuttle and back be being reasonable? In my opinion, absolutely not.

Imagine platform staff saying "I'm not dispatching more than X trains from this platform on my shift". They'd be ridiculed and, as platform staff myself, rightly so.

 

[AndrewE]

Agreed entirely. Depends on context.

Is a Preston driver refusing to do Preston-Glasgow-Preston-Glasgow-Preston reasonable? Yes. Absolutely. That's 10 hours+ driving, excluding PNB.

Would a driver during the Covid timetables refusing to do more than one Crewe-Chester shuttle and back be being reasonable? In my opinion, absolutely not.

Imagine platform staff saying "I'm not dispatching more than X trains from this platform on my shift". They'd be ridiculed and, as platform staff myself, rightly so.

that north end double trip would break any manning agreement and is a pretty poor excuse to offer to justify the status quo. What we are talking about is Avanti's inability to run any trains Preston to Carlisle (or Lockerbie) and back - let alone a shuttle - when there is disruption of any kind.

The single journey to Carlisle only takes 1 hr 7 min, to Lockerbie less than an hour and a half. If they can't work out how to run these trains they shouldn't be in charge of the railway!

 

[185143]

that north end double trip would break any manning agreement and is a pretty poor excuse to offer to justify the status quo. What we are talking about is Avanti's inability to run any trains Preston to Carlisle (or Lockerbie) and back - let alone a shuttle - when there is disruption of any kind.

The single journey to Carlisle only takes 1 hr 7 min, to Lockerbie less than an hour and a half. If they can't work out how to run these trains they shouldn't be in charge of the railway!

True. I was thinking more from a planning perspective than during disruption.

As someone who was stranded in Carlisle the other day and ended up doing Carlisle-Warrington via Leeds and Manchester... yeah. The fact that I'm pretty sure the same Pendo was stabled on platform 4 when I came back from the pub as when I'd arrived at Carlisle and abandoned my journey there 3 hours earlier was more than a bit annoying!

2 drivers originally rostered for Preston-Scotland and back should be able to do Preston-Carlisle-Preston-Carlisle-Preston-Carlisle-Preston between them easily, accounting for at least one PNB.

 

[Falcon1200]

It’s not that straightforward though, the southbound services aren’t just Preston crews. Euston, Wolverhampton and Piccadilly all work them as well.

Then simply cancel one or two trains operated by Preston crews; That would still leave a pretty good service south of Preston!

I'd like to think it's less mercenary than that, and was due to concerns about fatigue/attentional issues repeating the same journey multiple times in succession.

Given the type of service Avanti operates multiple trips over the same route would surely not be an issue, unless they were for some reason running for example an intensive Birmingham/Coventry shuttle, which seems unlikely. And even if they were there would be breaks between driving turns.

 

[Dore & Totley]

Yes, but they are flat per pay grade. That's normal (like apprentices' fees are a trivial amount).

I don't see your point, I earn more I pay more. Why must they be a percentage of my pay?