Bee Network - list of franchises awarded (Tranche 3 included)

[Leedsbusman]

Well Metroline obviously went in determined to win.

I doubt anyone went in not determined to win

Are the electrics at Sharston part funded by TfGM so are more likely to have arrangements to be passed on to the new operator. Or did I dream that ?

Also, the announcement says there are a further 120 electrics to come for tranche 3. As there are already 170 new electrics ordered for Stockport the 120 must be presumably for Metroline ?

The Sharston electrics would have been part funded by DFT and as far as I know are in the fleet which will pass to the new operators.

It will be interesting to see how Metroline manage this - they don’t have the benefit of the networks Stagecoach or Go Ahead do to source drivers or buses from - though may have some London buses available of there are new ones planned.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I fully expect that most staff will TUPE transfer; loyalty is overstated especially if it means additional travelling costs. That CDG will have get their procurement folks on the case... Well, yes, but a mix of new fleet and some short term hires will have to suffice assuming that Stagecoach don't hire some vehicles even on a short term basis (e.g. as First did with Diamond on selling Bolton)

Have Stagecoach recently had posters saying that they were the best bus driver payers in Greater Manchester? Will Metroline pay the same rates to Stagecoach bus drivers who TUPE across?

The Sharston electrics would have been part funded by DFT and as far as I know are in the fleet which will pass to the new operators.

Do you know what was the percentage funded by the DfT and will the operator be able to reclaim funding that their percentage entailed?

Breakdown of contract awards:

• Hyde Road large franchise – Metroline
• Sharston large franchise – Metroline
• Wythenshawe large franchise – Metroline
• Stockport large franchise – Stagecoach
• Tameside large franchise – Metroline
• Tameside A small franchise – Go North West
• Tameside B small franchise – Diamond
• Trafford small franchise – Diamond
• Stockport small franchise – Diamond

News such as this is what I expected to form part of the programme content of the 1830 BBC TV local news programme this evening, as the Tranche 3 area covers a very large area of the southern part of Greater Manchester with a regular viewing clientele, but absolutely nothing mas mentioned in this peak-time programme.

 

[47550]

Have Stagecoach recently had posters saying that they were the best bus driver payers in Greater Manchester? Will Metroline pay the same rates to Stagecoach bus drivers who TUPE across?

As I understand it under TUPE law, staff have their terms and conditions protected so yes Metroline will have to pay the same rates.

 

[M60lad]

Out of interest what will happen to the legal address for Stagecoach Manchester? Would the new legal address for next year be Stagecoach Manchester Wallshaw Street Oldham?

It would make sort of sense considering they've now got a big depot similar size (maybe smaller) to Hyde Road with Oldham Depot.

 

[mangad]

Out of interest what will happen to the legal address for Stagecoach Manchester? Would the new legal address for next year be Stagecoach Manchester Wallshaw Street Oldham?

It would make sort of sense considering they've now got a big depot similar size (maybe smaller) to Hyde Road with Oldham Depot.

Stagecoach have offices in Stockport. Indeed the legal address of
Greater Manchester Buses South Limited is
One Stockport Exchange, 20 Railway Road, Stockport.

Completely independent of any depot. So would be an obvious place to use.

 

[GCH100]

Metroline might by second-hand ex London stock, from various dealerships, in addition to bringing in its own London stock, as per GoAhead. Metroline tend no to buy products from ADL and prefer Volvo and Wrightbus so perhaps any additional new buses in addition to the TfGM stock, will be Volvo's or Wrightbus.

Stagecoach may use the former GoAhead Head Office at Queens Road as their Head Office next year, as the offices there are relatively modern, although a new office block could be built at the forthcoming new Stockport depot as an alternative. Oldham's offices haven't operated to full capacity for a while, and may require a lot of costly refurbishment work, if they where to be used.

Go North West will likely operate its share of routes from either Heywood or an additional outstation depending on the size of their operations.

Diamond's work presumably operates from Eccles depot as much of the work already does now.

I suspect with Stagecoach, some of the E400MMC's will move to North Manchester depots to replace hired Go Ahead stock at Queens Road, and old model E400's obviously the rest will go elsewhere. They may also try to get rid of the troublesum E400H's to TfGM/Metroline so they no longer have the bother of them.

 

[WibbleWobble]

Stagecoach have offices in Stockport. Indeed the legal address of
Greater Manchester Buses South Limited is
One Stockport Exchange, 20 Railway Road, Stockport.

Completely independent of any depot. So would be an obvious place to use.

That's the Stagecoach Shared Services Centre - it's where some of the group central functions are based, such as finance, payroll and IT.

 

[Goldfish62]

That's the Stagecoach Shared Services Centre - it's where some of the group central functions are based, such as finance, payroll and IT.

Apparently Queen's Road has nicely refurbished offices courtesy of GNW, so perhaps there.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Which depot will run the 379 service, as I cannot seem to trace it in the list of published franchised services.

Apparently Queen's Road has nicely refurbished offices courtesy of GNW, so perhaps there.

Will the new bus depot in Stockport, when eventually built have good office space incorporated in its design?

 

[Redmike]

Which depot will run the 379 service, as I cannot seem to trace it in the list of published franchised services.

Stockport depot. The list at the top of this thread predates the introduction of the 379 in 2020. Notice the 312 isn't on the list and the 328 is on there for example.

I'm still a little surprised that the 313 and 368 are under the Wythenshawe franchise. If a Stockport route was to be moved there surely the 11 is a better bet as there will be less dead mileage than moving the 313 and 368.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Have Stagecoach recently had posters saying that they were the best bus driver payers in Greater Manchester? Will Metroline pay the same rates to Stagecoach bus drivers who TUPE across?

TUPE legislation is designed to protect the existing employees terms and conditions of employment (excluding pensions) so Metroline will be obliged to maintain those, and tenderers will have submitted rates based on those.

 

[StagecoachBus1]

Will routes 391/392 continue to be run by Belle Vue in Tranche 3? They are not on the list, and most of the route is in Cheshire.

 

[47550]

I guess Go NW will need to find some depot space for the Tameside small franchise. I don’t think they allowed to operate a small franchise from large franchise premises (Bolton / Wigan) ?

 

[Tim33160]

Will routes 391/392 continue to be run by Belle Vue in Tranche 3? They are not on the list, and most of the route is in Cheshire.

391 /2 /3 are funded by Cheshire East and remain outside the Bee Network. They will need a TfGM Cross Border Permit to operate in GM from next January.

It remains to be seen what happens with Warrington's CAT 5 and X5 at Altrincham which are partly supported by TfGM in the GM area having replaced 287 288 after the collapse of Little Gem / Goodwins

 

[Andyh82]

But will they arrive in time?

When the whole tendering arrangements were agreed at the outset, aside from the garages which are difficult to move around , was there a census of existing buses which could be passed around new operators (which would stop the likes of Stagecoach transferring time expired buses into the 'pool'), or was nothing specified?

Metroline (CDG) have around 1200 buses in London. There have not been any contract loses recently - in fact they have gained the E1 and 28, but some contract renewals have called for around 150 new electric buses. Will they be delivered before January 2025, and will the recharging facilities be up and running by then to allow existing buses to transfer to Manchester?

So potentially 120 TfGM ordered buses and 150 transfers from London, which leaves around 100 others to find. Maybe a mixture of a few transfers from Cardiff and some new buses?

How about buses from Stagecoach?

Even if Stagecoach move buses around the country, there will still be the same number of buses made surplus at the end

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How about buses from Stagecoach?

Even if Stagecoach move buses around the country, there will still be the same number of buses made surplus at the end

It will be up to Stagecoach what they decide to do, from what I have read on other websites, where comment was made that they could decide to use some of their local area fleet on the routes they now run in the Tranche 2 franchise area that is now operational.

 

[baza585]

It will be up to Stagecoach what they decide to do, from what I have read on other websites, where comment was made that they could decide to use some of their local area fleet on the routes they now run in the Tranche 2 franchise area that is now operational.

No operator sells their best vehicles. I doubt Stagecoach will sell Metroline anything except some tired old e200/300/400 and then only once all Tridents and Darts group wide have been replaced. Why would they?

 

[mayneway]

It will be those who were instrumental in the introduction of this franchising system who will have surely given consideration to the said matter and decided the time period from franchise awarding implication to the actual commencement service running was sufficient.

I think there was a vested interest by TFGM to bring in outsiders to shake things up. I think overall TFGM will he disappointed more outsiders haven’t been involved.

Think it would have worked better if the bigger depots were all given to different operators but I suppose it comes down to money.

No operator sells their best vehicles. I doubt Stagecoach will sell Metroline anything except some tired old e200/300/400 and then only once all Tridents and Darts group wide have been replaced. Why would they?

They don’t sell to the winning operator they sell to TFGM. The vehicles enter a ‘pool’ and it’s up to TFGM planners where they go.

Allegedly Diamond made a handsome profit from selling their buses and depot to TFGM.
The ex Oxford Hybrids and the Scanias were also bought for a price exceeding their actual value because TFGM was desperate to have enough vehicles to meet needs.

Now apparently Queens road and Middleton have been short of suitable vehicles in the last few days - with Middleton coming under fire for using a double decker on the 125 route. Local councillors have stepped in forcing TFGM to promise it won’t happen again.

 

[JJmoogle]

Now apparently Queens road and Middleton have been short of suitable vehicles in the last few days - with Middleton coming under fire for using a double decker on the 125 route. Local councillors have stepped in forcing TFGM to promise it won’t happen again.

What's wrong with double deckers on the 125?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think there was a vested interest by TFGM to bring in outsiders to shake things up. I think overall TFGM will he disappointed more outsiders haven’t been involved.

Think it would have worked better if the bigger depots were all given to different operators but I suppose it comes down to money.

At least with ComfortDelGro getting a large part of T3, it does allow TfGM to highlight that they've shaken things up. However, they are tied to procurement rules and if most of the incumbents provide the Most Economically Advantageous Tenders (MEAT), then so be it.

 

[158756]

What's wrong with double deckers on the 125?

Allegedly they cause noise pollution, compromise the structural integrity of homes as they pass, diminish the aesthetic appeal of the community and affect the tranquillity and safety of the streets, among other complaints. (This is from an email sent to TfGM, posted on Facebook by the Middleton Independent Party).

To be clear this is Middleton were talking about, not some bucolic village in the Peak District or something.

 

[mayneway]

What's wrong with double

What's wrong with double deckers on the 125?

Apparently residents are not happy with a double decker flying round the route and have complained to the local councillor. It was addressed a few weeks back when stotts were running it and they were promised a single decker would be used, now stagecoach have felt the wrath for sending deckers on it with TFGM once again stepping in promising to sort it.

Reminds me of when TFGM first introduced the 90 to replace the 96 route. Residents in one street were unhappy at a bus rumbling past every hour so purposely parked awkwardly to try and get the service rerouted.

Allegedly they cause noise pollution, compromise the structural integrity of homes as they pass, diminish the aesthetic appeal of the community and affect the tranquillity and safety of the streets, among other complaints. (This is from an email sent to TfGM, posted on Facebook by the Middleton Independent Party).

To be clear this is Middleton were talking about, not some bucolic village in the Peak District or something.

I’ve just read the letter

At least with ComfortDelGro getting a large part of T3, it does allow TfGM to highlight that they've shaken things up. However, they are tied to procurement rules and if most of the incumbents provide the Most Economically Advantageous Tenders (MEAT), then so be it.

Agreed but just makes me wonder IF stagecoach had promised to convert Ashton, Hyde road and Sharston to fully electric they would have regained them??

 

[darylyates17]

391 /2 /3 are funded by Cheshire East and remain outside the Bee Network. They will need a TfGM Cross Border Permit to operate in GM from next January.

It remains to be seen what happens with Warrington's CAT 5 and X5 at Altrincham which are partly supported by TfGM in the GM area having replaced 287 288 after the collapse of Little Gem / Goodwins

What routes will not be included in Bee Network?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Agreed but just makes me wonder IF stagecoach had promised to convert Ashton, Hyde road and Sharston to fully electric they would have regained them??

That's not how procurement rules work. They have to be equitable to ALL potential parties so if unless it was specified in the tender requirements OR there was something specific in the scoring, that wouldn't have been allowed to influence the decision. The other thing is that if you're doing that as a non ZEBRA initiative, you're unlikely to compare favourably on cost against a diesel option.

 

[Andyh82]

I did put a hidden message in a post with three sentences that started CDG but so well hidden, I can't find the post now I'd been told that Stagecoach were keeping Stockport, and that the three other Stagecoach ones were heading to ComfortDelGro; didn't know about Wythenshawe. Rumours did have Diamond getting some smaller stuff so that's proven to be the case.

So to sum up everything... First are overall down but probably happy not to have Oldham. Stagecoach have a really mixed picture and a bit down. GNW are overall up, Diamond probably a bit down, and then you have the big new entrant.

I fully expect that most staff will TUPE transfer; loyalty is overstated especially if it means additional travelling costs. That CDG will have get their procurement folks on the case... Well, yes, but a mix of new fleet and some short term hires will have to suffice assuming that Stagecoach don't hire some vehicles even on a short term basis (e.g. as First did with Diamond on selling Bolton)

Stagecoach had 6 of the large franchise areas and will end up with 4 plus 17 school bus contracts, so they are down overall

Diamond had 1 of the large franchise areas but will end up with 11 small franchises, I don't know if that is up, down or flat

First had 1 large area and has finished with 2 small areas and also 6 school bus contracts, so are down. The fact First Manchester's legal address is now a glorified portacabin is a big fall from running Oldham

Go North West had 1 large area and now have 2 large franchises, 1 small franchise and 3 school bus contracts so are up

Arriva had 1 large are plus parts of small areas and have nothing but supposedly didn't bid
Transdev Rosso had what is now 2 small areas and parts of some large areas and have nothing. It isn't known if they bid.
Metroline obviously had nothing in Greater Manchester and now have 4 large areas

Vision had around 4 of the small franchise areas and just ended up with 6 school bus contracts, so far the only school bus only operator in the Bee Network

Stotts & Nexus Move will have no public bus services when Tranche 3 starts. Belle Vue, Hattons & Warrington's Own Buses also lost/will lose their TfGM work, various school bus operators like Atlantic Travel are also gradually losing all their work

All that is outstanding are the 9 school bus contracts in the Tranche 3 area, will any small operators win any work?

 

[mayneway]

That's not how procurement rules work. They have to be equitable to ALL potential parties so if unless it was specified in the tender requirements OR there was something specific in the scoring, that wouldn't have been allowed to influence the decision. The other thing is that if you're doing that as a non ZEBRA initiative, you're unlikely to compare favourably on cost against a diesel option.

I believe it’s not just about point scoring and cost. Each operator has to deliver a business plan type presentation explaining what they would bring to a contract.
Just seems odd that ever since stagecoach announced they were making Stockport 100% electric the feeling in the industry was that it was done to secure Stockport depot, and low and behold they have lost everything but Stockport.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I believe it’s not just about point scoring and cost. Each operator has to deliver a business plan type presentation explaining what they would bring to a contract.
Just seems odd that ever since stagecoach announced they were making Stockport 100% electric the feeling in the industry was that it was done to secure Stockport depot, and low and behold they have lost everything but Stockport.

You appear not to mention their Tranche 2 gains, though.

 

[mayneway]

You appear not to mention their Tranche 2 gains, though.

Im not on a downer re stagecoach in my last comment, it’s just from an insiders point of view everyone seemed to read the story about Stockport going 100% electric and saying - that’s been done to guarantee they retain it.

As for Tranche 2. The theory behind that is or was that stagecoach were the only interested party in all three big depots.
I know for a fact GNW only showed an interest in Queens, likewise First only in Oldham.

 

[Leedsbusman]

Im not on a downer re stagecoach in my last comment, it’s just from an insiders point of view everyone seemed to read the story about Stockport going 100% electric and saying - that’s been done to guarantee they retain it.

As for Tranche 2. The theory behind that is or was that stagecoach were the only interested party in all three big depots.
I know for a fact GNW only showed an interest in Queens, likewise First only in Oldham.

The published results show six bids were received for both Queens Road and Oldham and seven for Middleton so that theory seems rather unlikely.

 

[mayneway]

The published results show six bids were received for both Queens Road and Oldham and seven for Middleton so that theory seems rather unlikely.

Only going off what we were told by our employer at the time the T2 results were announced, that they made a terrible mistake not bidding on all 3 depots.