Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

[158756]

Not sure if there is a better thread for this, but politics is already getting in the way of the Bee Network.

Stockport Council say there will be no more funding for buses (including the promised extension of the £2 fare beyond the end of December) until there is a "firm commitment" to extending Metrolink to Stockport.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crmzydp3kx4o

A council leader has said he will refuse to support an increase in local bus funding unless a "firm commitment" was secured for a key new tram line in Greater Manchester.

Mayor Andy Burnham recently announced that a £2 bus fare cap in the city region would continue into 2025, despite the fare rising to £3 nationally.

But Mark Hunter, leader of Stockport Council, has said he would not support the plan by approving an increase in locally-funded bus subsidies until a long-promised expansion of the Metrolink network into the town was finalised.

In response, Mr Burnham said: "To actually build it we need to get the business case through, then hopefully we will get the green light."

In the recent Budget, the government confirmed that the £2 single bus fare cap would be hiked to £3 for most of England in January.

In Greater Manchester, though, Mr Burnham confirmed fares would remain at the current rate "for the whole of 2025 but subject to a mid-year review".

Bus fares in Greater Manchester are capped at £2 for a single journey

But in order to keep the arrangement in place it would require either more passengers, a grant from central government or an increase in council funding.

 

[Shauny]

Well, the first timetables of Tranche 3 have been published on the Bee Network website:

281 - Altrincham to Sale https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...24bb3bd7ec57f1731147cb6fa/281__24-SC-0625.pdf

282 - Altrincham to Oldfield Brow https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...41d2e90574ad6bf76820285b9b/282_24-SC-0624.pdf

283/284 - Altrincham to Hale https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...10fafb00b83cead282c79/283__284_23-SC-0623.pdf

 

[daodao]

Well, the first timetables of Tranche 3 have been published on the Bee Network website:

281 - Altrincham to Sale https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...24bb3bd7ec57f1731147cb6fa/281__24-SC-0625.pdf

282 - Altrincham to Oldfield Brow https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...41d2e90574ad6bf76820285b9b/282_24-SC-0624.pdf

283/284 - Altrincham to Hale https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...10fafb00b83cead282c79/283__284_23-SC-0623.pdf

The timetable for route 282 states that:

We’re also making minor changes to the times of all journeys and buses will run direct along Oldfield Road instead of Walton Road in Oldfield Brow, to allow larger buses to operate on the route.

Arriva currently operate Mellor Strata minibuses on the Altrincham local routes, which is adequate for the minimal custom and enables minor roads to be served. Increasing the size of the vehicles used is likely to increase the costs of running these routes.

TfGM have also maintained the service frequency, despite the minimal use of the Altrincham local services during evenings and Sundays.

Unfortunately for Greater Manchester council tax payers, and unlike other local authorities, TfGM seem to have lost sight of the need to reduce the costs of operating the large number of loss-making bus services for which they are now responsible.

 

[markymark2000]

TfGM seem to have lost sight of the need to reduce the costs of operating the large number of loss-making bus services for which they are now responsible.

Same with most transport authorities. Reducing services in these sorts of areas tends to be politically difficult and too many staff within the authorities either aren't willing to have the difficult conversations, or don't have the skills needed. Too little accountability of where funding is going.

 

[mangad]

The timetable for route 282 states that:


Arriva currently operate Mellor Strata minibuses on the Altrincham local routes, which is adequate for the minimal custom and enables minor roads to be served. Increasing the size of the vehicles used is likely to increase the costs of running these routes.

TfGM have also maintained the service frequency, despite the minimal use of the Altrincham local services during evenings and Sundays.

Unfortunately for Greater Manchester council tax payers, and unlike other local authorities, TfGM seem to have lost sight of the need to reduce the costs of operating the large number of loss-making bus services for which they are now responsible.

Not sure I understand your argument. Are you saying they shouldn't be running these services in the Bee Network because they lose money? These aren't commercial services now. The small print on each timetable is clear:

"Bus 281 is provided with the financial support of Transport for Greater Manchester"
"Bus 282 is provided with the financial support of Transport for Greater Manchester"
"Bus 283 is provided with the financial support of Transport for Greater Manchester"
"Bus 284 is provided with the financial support of Transport for Greater Manchester"

These are services, like many others, being run now not for profit, but for the perceived greater good to the community. Nothing changes with Bee Network.

Yes, we could cull all non-profitable buses. We could do that tomorrow. Axe them all. Kill every single one off to reduce cash. And then sit back smugly as knowing we've done our duty to cut costs... whilst watching people trapped in their homes because they can't get anyway... whilst seeing communities cut off from others... see people unable to get to job opportunities because they have no transport links...

As for the exact vehicles being used, frankly without knowing exactly what vehicles they're going to use, and without knowing the minute breakdown of the financial costs, how do we know it will increase running costs? It's hardly likely they're going to be running double deckers on the routes after all. They'll probably just use a slightly bigger single decker. There could be several reasons why they're doing this - such as simplifying operations by reducing vehicle types. Or maybe they haven't been able to source some smaller vehicles in time. Either way when you look at the maps, the route change is frankly minimal.

 

[geoffk]

Unfortunately for Greater Manchester council tax payers, and unlike other local authorities, TfGM seem to have lost sight of the need to reduce the costs of operating the large number of loss-making bus services for which they are now responsible.

I'm no longer living in the area but try to keep up with developments. I expect all these routes will be subject to review to ensure value for money and the key is how you measure that. Health benefits, improved access to education and employment and reduction in congestion all need to be part of the "balance sheet".

 

[johncrossley]

I thought that some Bee Network routes in the north of GM are now run by small Mercedes minibuses that used to use normal sized buses under the previous operator?

 

[Leedsbusman]

I thought that some Bee Network routes in the north of GM are now run by small Mercedes minibuses that used to use normal sized buses under the previous operator?

There are some former Rosso routes which has 29-33 seat E200s that now use Stratas.

 

[Shauny]

285/286 - Altrincham to Timperley Circular https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...6d0346b7c70e3a01763fc/285__286_24-SC-0622.pdf

 

[mayneway]

Go North west have begun operating some Tranche 3 school contracts this week after Belle Vue apparently handed them back to TFGM due to a lack of staff. Diamond already operate some tranche 3 schools previously operated by Belle Vue and chose to purchase some of the vehicles used.

 

[M60lad]

Also Tyrers have allegedly been operating some of Belle Vue's Schools round Stockport I think they would operate more of them but they haven't got the vehicles at present.

All this is due to the fact that some of Belle Vue's drivers have already left as they've found other work from January and other reasons.

 

[mayneway]

Also Tyrers have allegedly been operating some of Belle Vue's Schools round Stockport I think they would operate more of them but they haven't got the vehicles at present.

All this is due to the fact that some of Belle Vue's drivers have already left as they've found other work from January and other reasons.

The Tyrers situation is slightly different with them doing odd days on certain services on behalf of Belle Vue, so effectively they are being hired in to cover the work on a ad hoc basis whereas in Go North Wests case the contract has actually passed to them early.

 

[Andyh82]

From 5th January, some services will be renumbered to avoid clashes with other services

18 Manchester Airport – Sale – Trafford Park – Eccles will be renumbered 248
19 Wythenshawe – Sale – Altrincham will be renumbered 249
74 Hollinwood – Newton Heath – Manchester will be renumbered 76B

https://tfgm.com/the-bee-network/bus-services#anchor-Final-Bee-Network-services-to-be-added--from-5-January-2025-

 

[Tim33160]

New Tranche Three timetables started have appeared online!
See these timetables on https://tfgm.com/travel-updates/travel-alerts#bus.

To filter the page so only service changes appear:
Select 'Route & timetable changes' under filter by category
Select 'tomorrow onwards' under filter by date
Search your bus number in the search by bus route box

Seems to be all routes ;

From Sunday 5 January, X5 will be renumbered to 5A and be changed to run between Lymm and Warrington only.
The following bus services will replace the other sections of the route: 279 (Lymm – Bowdon – Altrincham), 287 (Bowdon Vale – Altrincham) and 288 (Manchester Airport – Altrincham).
279 replacing X5 (but every 2hrs)
https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...e8fb3848f5ca8bc401aef25a00/279_24-SC-0580.pdf
280 to Dunham Woodhouses only (every 2hrs)
https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...794d393dbd7f3c95cd91242e79/280_24-SC-0584.pdf
no sign of a 289 as yet:

 

[daodao]

New Tranche Three timetables started have appeared online!
See these timetables on https://tfgm.com/travel-updates/travel-alerts#bus.

To filter the page so only service changes appear:
Select 'Route & timetable changes' under filter by category
Select 'tomorrow onwards' under filter by date
Search your bus number in the search by bus route box

Seems to be all routes ;

From Sunday 5 January, X5 will be renumbered to 5A and be changed to run between Lymm and Warrington only.
The following bus services will replace the other sections of the route: 279 (Lymm – Bowdon – Altrincham), 287 (Bowdon Vale – Altrincham) and 288 (Manchester Airport – Altrincham).
279 replacing X5 (but every 2hrs)
https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...e8fb3848f5ca8bc401aef25a00/279_24-SC-0580.pdf
280 to Dunham Woodhouses only (every 2hrs)
https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...794d393dbd7f3c95cd91242e79/280_24-SC-0584.pdf
no sign of a 289 as yet:

Thanks for the update. These changes represent a significant deterioration in the usefulness of the bus services in the Bowdon/Dunham/Warburton areas within Greater Manchester and also significantly reduce connectivity between Warrington/Lymm and Altrincham. In particular:

• The only remaining through service (5) from Warrington to Altrincham is slow because of its roundabout route and will no longer run in the evenings.
• There will no longer be a fast direct bus from Warrington to Altrincham with the withdrawal of route X5.
• The new direct bus from Lymm to Altrincham (service 279) will be 2 hourly and just provides 6 journeys on Mon-Sat only between 0700 and 1900; the existing X5 service runs hourly Mon-Sat daytime and 2 hourly evenings and Sundays.
• The bus service from Altrincham to Dunham (service 280), which passes the National Trust Dunham Massey Estate, will be reduced to 2 hourly. on Mon-Sat and will terminate at Dunham, thus removing the connection at Partington with service 247 to Trafford General Hospital and the Trafford Centre.
• There will no longer be a direct bus from Altrincham to Bowdon Church via Cavendish Road and the Firs as the outbound route for re-instated service 287 to Bowdon Vale will be via Langham Road.
• There will no longer be direct buses from Warrington/Lymm/Bowdon to the airport with the withdrawal of route X5.

So much for the promised "improvements" with the introduction of the franchised Bee Network. There seems to be little commercial sense in some of these changes, which are likely to reduce custom and thus increase the subsidy required to run the revised network. It is a pity that TfGM was unable to co-operate with Warrington Transport to maintain a more coherent network in this area.

 

[PaulWC]

no sign of a 289 as yet:

The only sources that mentioned a 289 were Warrington Council and Warringtons Own Buses, who doubtless got that bit wrong.

 

[Andyh82]

There is a full list of what services are joining the Bee Network in Tranche 3 and there is no 289 listed

https://tfgm.com/the-bee-network/bus-services#anchor-Final-Bee-Network-services-to-be-added--from-5-January-2025-

 

[Shauny]

I was hoping for the 263 to be reverted back to every 15 minutes as that route gets very busy, especially in the peak.

 

[Tim33160]

I was hoping for the 263 to be reverted back to every 15 minutes as that route gets very busy, especially in the peak.

Apparently all Bee Network buses going into the city centre are supposed to be deckers - so perhaps the 263 will get some?.

Not sure where this leaves the X50 and 87 that Diamond currently run?

 

[Shauny]

Apparently all Bee Network buses going into the city centre are supposed to be deckers - so perhaps the 263 will get some?.

Not sure where this leaves the X50 and 87 that Diamond currently run?

It would be nice to have deckers on the 263 as it would provide some extra capacity. I did see something a while back on Facebook that Wythenshawe depot were just having MMC’s across the entire fleet.

Bear in mind Wythenshawe depot can facilitate deckers as Arriva used to have some about 5 years ago prior. So hopefully we will see deckers out on the 263.

As for the 87 & X50 I suppose Diamond could use their existing streetdecks, as they don’t seem to be on the Trafford Centre - Leigh/Wigan as much now.

 

[Gareth1980]

It would be nice to have deckers on the 263 as it would provide some extra capacity. I did see something a while back on Facebook that Wythenshawe depot were just having MMC’s across the entire fleet.

Bear in mind Wythenshawe depot can facilitate deckers as Arriva used to have some about 5 years ago prior. So hopefully we will see deckers out on the 263.

As for the 87 & X50 I suppose Diamond could use their existing streetdecks, as they don’t seem to be on the Trafford Centre - Leigh/Wigan as much now.

Is the X50 not moving to Hyde Road (Metroline)?

 

[Statto]

In the GM Buses era the 263/264 had deckers allocated to the route, GM Buses withdrew the 263/264 in 1994, & it became a Bee Line, then Arriva route, not sure when single decks replaced the deckers though.

The 264 went via the 263 Altrincham - Old Trafford, then went via Chester Road & Deansgate, useg to go to/from Victoria Station then moved to Shudehill

 

[M60lad]

Not to sure what year it was but I think the final move to all single decks on 263 route was when Wythenshawe finally became an all single deck depot as it really only had deckers allocated to it due to the School Services that used to operate from there, once they lost all the School Services the deckers were moved out.

Another route that could have deckers allocated to it is 247 Trafford Centre-Altricham service, the only reason why it had to have singles in the past is due to the fact that the original service used to run to Eccles via the notorious Barton Bridge, I have actually travelled on a couple of deckers on 247 route in the past.

 

[daodao]

Not to sure what year it was but I think the final move to all single decks on 263 route was when Wythenshawe finally became an all single deck depot as it really only had deckers allocated to it due to the School Services that used to operate from there, once they lost all the School Services the deckers were moved out.

Another route that could have deckers allocated to it is 247 Trafford Centre-Altrincham service, the only reason why it had to have singles in the past is due to the fact that the original service used to run to Eccles via the notorious Barton Bridge, I have actually travelled on a couple of deckers on 247 route in the past.

There isn't a need for double-deck buses on any routes serving the southern half of Trafford Borough (i.e. south of the River Mersey). Apart from dedicated school services, double-deck buses are really only useful as a more economical way of increasing capacity on high frequency services (at least every 15 minutes). No services in South Trafford have a frequency greater than every 20 minutes, and most are even more infrequent. For example, route 247 runs every 30 minutes Mon-Fri daytimes and Saturday mornings (hourly at other times), with a substantial rural portion using relatively narrow roads from Sinderland (near my local Waitrose store) to Partington; double-deck buses are neither needed nor appropriate on this partly-subsidised service.

 

[johncrossley]

It would be nice to have deckers on the 263 as it would provide some extra capacity. I did see something a while back on Facebook that Wythenshawe depot were just having MMC’s across the entire fleet.

How far are passengers travelling on the 263? Are passengers travelling on a direct bus just to avoid paying extra to change onto the tram? Sure, a lot of people will be travelling short distances but if a lot of passengers are sitting on the bus just to save money then they need to think about changing the fare system rather than getting bigger buses.

 

[Class 466]

How far are passengers travelling on the 263? Are passengers travelling on a direct bus just to avoid paying extra to change onto the tram? Sure, a lot of people will be travelling short distances but if a lot of passengers are sitting on the bus just to save money then they need to think about changing the fare system rather than getting bigger buses.

I commute solely by bus rather than tram and bus as £84 a month is far more affordable than the £136 for tram & bus monthly. Even if every evening journey takes over an hour and a half because of Manchesters abysmal traffic.

 

[sprunt]

Not sure if there is a better thread for this, but politics is already getting in the way of the Bee Network.

Stockport Council say there will be no more funding for buses (including the promised extension of the £2 fare beyond the end of December) until there is a "firm commitment" to extending Metrolink to Stockport.

Do individual councils have the power of veto for this?

 

[Tim33160]

Diamond Bus NW has taken over Belle Vue tendered service 280 Altrincham - Dunham - Partington as from 4pm Friday 6th Dec, following a couple of weeks of missed journeys due to driver shortage, culminating in only running between school bus times

Diamond Bus have also gained the Belle Vue Solo SR which fits under Dunham town canal bridge 20746 YJ16DXK
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mikemcniven/54188976068 (not my photo)

This week at least, they are operating without fares - the bus has no ticket machine fitted

Speaking to the driver this morning, a new bus is expected in a few weeks.
After 5 Jan 2025 the route is part of Trafford Small Franchise, so they are starting the contract early
Due to height restrictions it is expected a Mellor minibus will work this route which has a PVR of one

Current supported timetable:
https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...7f5f98bca89311cc/280_23-SC-0583_amendment.pdf hrly M-S, two hrly SuPH by Arriva
After 5 Jan: Bee Network: curtailed and reduced frequency to every 2 hrs daily
https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93idf4jq/1pFoISWGxVAjCAoV8n5lKm/aa19cd794d393dbd7f3c95cd91242e79/280_24-SC-0584.pdf

 

[noddingdonkey]

There isn't a need for double-deck buses on any routes serving the southern half of Trafford Borough (i.e. south of the River Mersey). Apart from dedicated school services, double-deck buses are really only useful as a more economical way of increasing capacity on high frequency services (at least every 15 minutes). No services in South Trafford have a frequency greater than every 20 minutes, and most are even more infrequent. For example, route 247 runs every 30 minutes Mon-Fri daytimes and Saturday mornings (hourly at other times), with a substantial rural portion using relatively narrow roads from Sinderland (near my local Waitrose store) to Partington; double-deck buses are neither needed nor appropriate on this partly-subsidised service.

This logic surprises me - I'm used to double deckers being used on less frequent services and single deckers on more frequent ones. I assume that running eg 2 double deckers vs 4 single deckers is substantially cheaper?

In terms of narrow roads, what is it that makes deckers less suitable? From what i can see, Wrightbus's single and double deck models are the same width

 

[pokemonsuper9]

In terms of narrow roads, what is it that makes deckers less suitable? From what i can see, Wrightbus's single and double deck models are the same width

While this is by no means a rule, double deckers are usually quite long compared to some single deckers (I doubt there are many double deckers the 7.1 metres of the smallest Optare Solos).