Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

[tomoufc]

Until someone complains to TFGM that they waited 2 hours on deansgate for a 67/100 and then they will insist they use normal route.


Not disagreeing with your statement but it’s the length of time it’s estimated to take and the chaos In the mean time. If this was in china or Japan it would have been undertaken and completed in a matter of weeks with little impact to everyone not 12 months.
Wait till the Christmas markets start then it will be chaos!

I wonder if in somewhere like Japan they might have closed the road entirely, rather than trying to maintain it as a through route. Not sure about 12 weeks though - it’s a total transformation of the urban realm.

I have some sympathy with the planners- traffic modelling is less scientific than it sounds. The crucial thing is to be adaptable when things don’t work out as you expected. Hopefully they’re on the case there, but it must be difficult and there is a danger of making things worse through unintended consequences.

I do feel that there seems to be a lack of coordination, however. If there are big events in the central area, are measures such as closing car parks and increasing park and ride provision ever really considered?

 

[Mwanesh]

This can be done in less time if all the resources were put in one place.You would expect TFGM now in control, it could have been better managed

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We were all informed how much better things were going to be once the "Three Tranches" were fully operational...

 

[mayneway]

I wonder if in somewhere like Japan they might have closed the road entirely, rather than trying to maintain it as a through route. Not sure about 12 weeks though - it’s a total transformation of the urban realm.

I have some sympathy with the planners- traffic modelling is less scientific than it sounds. The crucial thing is to be adaptable when things don’t work out as you expected. Hopefully they’re on the case there, but it must be difficult and there is a danger of making things worse through unintended consequences.

I do feel that there seems to be a lack of coordination, however. If there are big events in the central area, are measures such as closing car parks and increasing park and ride provision ever really considered?

I’ll tell you something. I drive buses on chapel street and Blackfriars’s on a daily basis. The rail bridges on both roads and the tracks above them require a lot of maintenance and it often means the roads are shut during the works - but it doesn’t effect buses and business because the works are carried out over night.

I can also remember the works Salford council did on the section of road outside Salford cathedral a few years ago - to the workers worked at most 4-5 hours a day. Late start on a Monday, early finish on a Friday and 3pm finishes the rest of the time. It’s just poor all round.

We were all informed how much better things were going to be once the "Three Tranches" were fully operational...

Yep. The works are actually being done by Salford council but they have to be approved by TFGM.
As u understand it one of the major hold ups during these works is out of sync, badly timed lights that are controlled by…..TFGM!

 

[tomoufc]

We were all informed how much better things were going to be once the "Three Tranches" were fully operational...

I think there’s a temptation to either put any improvements down to the success of franchising, or any shortcomings down to its failure. Nothing’s that simple, but I know very few people who would want to go back to the old system, even if it were commercially viable, which it clearly isn’t.

I’ll tell you something. I drive buses on chapel street and Blackfriars’s on a daily basis. The rail bridges on both roads and the tracks above them require a lot of maintenance and it often means the roads are shut during the works - but it doesn’t effect buses and business because the works are carried out over night.

I can also remember the works Salford council did on the section of road outside Salford cathedral a few years ago - to the workers worked at most 4-5 hours a day. Late start on a Monday, early finish on a Friday and 3pm finishes the rest of the time. It’s just poor all round.


Yep. The works are actually being done by Salford council but they have to be approved by TFGM.
As u understand it one of the major hold ups during these works is out of sync, badly timed lights that are controlled by…..TFGM!

I’m not sure if you’ve seen the planning documents for the scheme, but there’s no way it could be achieved solely at night. It’s ripping up the entire footprint of the public realm and starting again.

 

[mayneway]

think there’s a temptation to either put any improvements down to the success of franchising, or any shortcomings down to its failure. Nothing’s that simple, but I know very few people who would want to go back to the old system, even if it were commercially viable, which it clearly isn’t.

Funny that because the vast amount of passengers I pick up on a daily basis along with the majority of my colleagues would much rather have the old commercial system back.
HAD things been commercial the hundreds of punters at the Trafford Centre wouldn’t have waited over 2 hours for buses home on Tuesday night because every bus was stuck in the traffic in the city centre. Had things been commercial buses would have been diverted away from the gridlock and not all been stuck in one place.

I’m not sure if you’ve seen the planning documents for the scheme, but there’s no way it could be achieved solely at night. It’s ripping up the entire footprint of the public realm and starting again.

It’s a pointless vanity project and with some better planning traffic could potentially flow much better. It’s never going to work when traffic lights are all out of sync and when others only let 2 or 3 cars through then go back to red.

 

[py_megapixel]

Funny that because the vast amount of passengers I pick up on a daily basis along with the majority of my colleagues would much rather have the old commercial system back.
HAD things been commercial the hundreds of punters at the Trafford Centre wouldn’t have waited over 2 hours for buses home on Tuesday night because every bus was stuck in the traffic in the city centre. Had things been commercial buses would have been diverted away from the gridlock and not all been stuck in one place.

Really?
In my time using the deregulated networks, both in Manchester and elsewhere, I certainly have experienced very excessive waits for buses due to them being stuck in congestion elsewhere on the route.
(I'm not saying TfGM couldn't do a better job of regulating the service - I'm sure they could, and I would hope they will as it becomes more apparent how the closures are affecting traffic flow)

I'm also not sure how you can conclude the vast majority of your passengers preferred the old way, unless you're asking a representative sample of them as they board. Those who approach you to complain about something are not representative!

 

[158756]

The Chapel Street works are for the long term benefit of transport in central Greater Manchester. It’s a big project that will inevitably cause a lot of disruption. Disruption can be managed but not avoided, in a city totally over-reliant on private motor vehicles.

Eh, I'm sure it'll look a lot nicer when they've finished, but how much of it is really a transport project? They're upgrading cycle lanes that already exist and adding a pedestrian crossing. Does that really need to take a year and cause so much disruption?

I wonder what the predictions are for the impact of the finished project on bus speeds? Unless there's a major reduction in other traffic it won't be good.

And once this is done the council want to start on the Chapel Street/Trinity Way junction.

 

[johncrossley]

They're upgrading cycle lanes that already exist

The current lanes are just paint on the road so are basically the same as having nothing all.

I wonder what the predictions are for the impact of the finished project on bus speeds?

It is bound to be slower and that is by design, to encourage more active travel. Civilising motor traffic in urban areas is now one of the key goals of transport planners.

 

[daodao]

It is bound to be slower and that is by design, to encourage more active travel. Civilising motor traffic in urban areas is now one of the key goals of transport planners.

Impeding motor traffic in urban areas as in Greater Manchester also impairs public transport (i.e. buses) as well as affecting private vehicles. The net effect is to encourage the use of out of town retail parks, to the detriment of town/city centres.

 

[tomoufc]

Impeding motor traffic in urban areas as in Greater Manchester also impairs public transport (i.e. buses) as well as affecting private vehicles. The net effect is to encourage the use of out of town retail parks, to the detriment of town/city centres.

If anything, making the city centre more pleasant to walk and cycle around will increase the use of city centre shops. This is demonstrated all over Europe. Bus and active travel priority is the key.

They're upgrading cycle lanes that already exist and adding a pedestrian crossing.

No there’s far more to it than that, including continuous side road crossing for pedestrians, parklets/gardens and the like. Again, it’s worth looking at the plans in detail. One of the reasons it’s taking a year is to maintain a degree of use by motor vehicles during the works. Whether that’s appropriate or not, I’m not sure, but perhaps they’d have more complaints if it were closed entirely for, say, five months.

It’s a pointless vanity project and with some better planning traffic could potentially flow much better. It’s never going to work when traffic lights are all out of sync and when others only let 2 or 3 cars through then go back to red.

Vanity project or no, GM is way behind other cities in providing safe active travel infrastructure. It’s just a shame the project has taken so long to come to fruition and that much more isn’t planned.

Well here’s an alternative perspective. Not sure why there seems to have been a big improvement, but the chaos appeared to have evaporated yesterday https://vm.tiktok.com/ZNdrFg67a/

 

[daodao]

If anything, making the city centre more pleasant to walk and cycle around will increase the use of city centre shops. This is demonstrated all over Europe. Bus and active travel priority is the key.

The UK is part of the Anglosphere, not Europe, with much less densely populated urban centres, to which public transport access is primarily provided by buses. Obstructions to accessing/crossing the city centre easily by bus, as seems to be the policy in Manchester, reduces its attractiveness as a "destination" for local residents.

 

[tomoufc]

The UK is part of the Anglosphere, not Europe, with much less densely populated urban centres, to which public transport access is primarily provided by buses. Obstructions to accessing/crossing the city centre easily by bus, as seems to be the policy in Manchester, reduces is attractiveness as a "destination" for local residents.

I don’t think this project will make bus travel more difficult in the longer-term, and central Manchester is very densely populated these days. I’m also not sure what language has to do with it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

HAD things been commercial the hundreds of punters at the Trafford Centre wouldn’t have waited over 2 hours for buses home on Tuesday night because every bus was stuck in the traffic in the city centre

There were no traffic jams in Manchester when buses were commercial?

Bus wars: Get it sorted

THE Manchester Evening News today launches a campaign to sort out the bus chaos crippling the heart of Manchester. And commuters, business leaders and politicians are right behind us.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Dozens of empty buses blocked traffic in the city centre yet again yesterday as rival transport firms took their free-for-all battle for passengers into its third week. The bus wars broke out when UK North began running 12 services an hour on the Manchester to Chorlton route already served by Stagecoach.

It meant 30 buses trying to cram into the same bus stops every hour, causing massive tailbacks which brought the city centre to a standstill.

Passengers on Metrolink trams have been stuck for up to an hour. And some travellers have been forced to get off buses on the outskirts of the city centre and walk to their destination, while cars and lorries have also been caught in gridlock.

Oh for the good old days!

 

[mayneway]

There were no traffic jams in Manchester when buses were commercial?

It’s very hard for people who don’t work in the transport sector in Manchester to fully understand so let me explain.
Yes there’s always been traffic jams however each depot had comms teams that would quickly act and divert traffic away from the hot spot ensuring things were not all snarled up in one long queue.
Now the comms teams have to sit and watch these issues develop and do nothing until someone at TFGM decides to give the nod to a diversion.

I never ever went even close to going over my driving hours while things were commercial, yet since things went franchised it’s almost a weekly occurrence.

 

[tomoufc]

It’s very hard for people who don’t work in the transport sector in Manchester to fully understand so let me explain.
Yes there’s always been traffic jams however each depot had comms teams that would quickly act and divert traffic away from the hot spot ensuring things were not all snarled up in one long queue.
Now the comms teams have to sit and watch these issues develop and do nothing until someone at TFGM decides to give the nod to a diversion.

I never ever went even close to going over my driving hours while things were commercial, yet since things went franchised it’s almost a weekly occurrence.

What’s the reason for TfGM to approve?

 

[robertclark125]

What’s the reason for TfGM to approve?

TfGM operate the buses, private companies run them under contract on their behalf. They have to do what TfGM say. Those which are cross boundary, and not run by TfGM, I think have a little leeway.

Basically as TfGM is the operator, they call the shots, not the contractor.

 

[mayneway]

TfGM operate the buses, private companies run them under contract on their behalf. They have to do what TfGM say. Those which are cross boundary, and not run by TfGM, I think have a little leeway.

Basically as TfGM is the operator, they call the shots, not the contractor.

Pretty much spot on. They also have ultimate control on traffic management, so approving road works and the timing and syncing of lights.