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Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

Man of Kent

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5 Jul 2018
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618
Competition did not work in Manchester, it was just a series of local unaccountable monopolies. Look at the only part of the UK where bus ridership grew - the only part of the country where it wasn't a free for all.
Not true. Use in regulated Northern Ireland has fallen. From statistics available at https://www.infrastructure-ni.gov.uk/articles/northern-ireland-transport-statistics, the number of bus passengers in 1995-96 was 80.8m, falling to 68.3m in 2019-20, despite population growth of around 15% in the meantime.

Also DfT statistics show bus journeys per head of population in London have been falling for the last 10 years.
 
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TheSmiths82

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Manchester
Are you saying that once all three tranches of the Bee Network are all fully operational, the local unaccountable monopolies will be replaced by a much larger single monopoly?

The difference is that local authority will plan routes and buses based on need and not just on profit. The reregulated model worked well on major trunk routes such as Wilmslow Road but smaller areas suffered as services was cut. The other issue is in many areas there is currently no competition anyway, for example Stagecoach pretty much dominate the Wilmslow and Stockport Road corridors and the price is set purely by what they think they can get away with charging.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The difference is that local authority will plan routes and buses based on need and not just on profit. The reregulated model worked well on major trunk routes such as Wilmslow Road but smaller areas suffered as services was cut. The other issue is in many areas there is currently no competition anyway, for example Stagecoach pretty much dominate the Wilmslow and Stockport Road corridors and the price is set purely by what they think they can get away with charging.
I thought that the £2 maximum fare was still in operation, Are you saying that Stagecoach are not abiding by that ruling?
 

mayneway

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29 Mar 2024
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Manchester
I certainly remember lots of cancelled and heavily delayed buses in Urmston, Flixton & Davyhulme when I was last there, and the reduction of services to probably 60% of pre Covid services. The difference being of course, there were little or no consequences to Stagecoach or Arriva when a bus didn't run. With the Bee Network that issue is directly addressed.
When was this?
The country has and still is suffering from a driver shortage. Journeys on services in most parts of the country have been affected and in some cases companies have ceased or given up service all together because they cannot find staff.

Ironically now 60% of Manchester has fallen under the Bee network, there’s STILL a massive shortage of drivers. One operator is heavily propped up by agency staff which is being subsidised by TFGM, another operator is heavily supported by secondment drivers and local loans to cover work.

Under the Bee Network, journeys are still being cancelled due to driver shortages but because the data realised by TFGM only covers punctuality and not cancellations everyone assumes things are rosey - they are not!
 

Deerfold

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I doubt if it was 'gazillions' after taking account of all the new buses that were provided. Also I read elsewhere that GMPTE are spending north of £130 million to set up custard bus (Bee Network) over next few years.
So, £60 per person in Greater Manchester, over several years?

I thought that the £2 maximum fare was still in operation, Are you saying that Stagecoach are not abiding by that ruling?
GMPTE were funding the difference between the normal fare and £2. I suspect Stagecoach didn't mind who was paying it, so long as someone was.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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So, £60 per person in Greater Manchester, over several years?
But that money could have been saved had not the "yellow vanity" programme had not been brought into existence and livery matters had been left as they were.

They did. They're also receiving funding for franchising.
So, as it turns out, TfGM were not actually funding the difference from their own budget, which is what the original "anti-Stagecoach" and "good old TfGM" posting would have you believe..... :rolleyes:
 

mangad

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Stockport
But that money could have been saved had not the "yellow vanity" programme had not been brought into existence and livery matters had been left as they were.
Yes, TfGM could have "saved" money by not introducing franchises and leaving everything as it was.

Hey, can save money by not doing lots of things. Councils across the country can save money by not providing libraries, not providing leisure centres, by not fixing potholes. For example.

But should you? Well that's a political decision. And those who bothered to pop to the polling stations have twice now voted for someone who has championed franchising. And the reality is, it's not going to go away. The chances of someone being elected Mayor of Greater Manchester with a policy of dismantling franchising, is now pretty low. No one would ever stand on a ticket for scrapping London's bus system after all. There are few cities across the world who have been keen to follow the deregulated model championed by the UK.

So perhaps it's time for everyone to leave aside the arguments of should it be done, and accept it has been done and it's not going away.
 

GusB

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Elginshire
Please remember that this thread is for discussing Bee Network routes and any changes to the services that run along them.

It is not for discussing whether or not franchising is a good thing, nor is it the place to be having the public vs private ownership debate. The franchising process is well underway whether you agree with it or not. Constantly going over the same old ground is utterly pointless.

There is a thread for discussing fleet changes here - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tfgm-bee-network-fleet-discussion.252940/

For anything else, please start a new thread.
 

M60lad

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31 May 2011
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879
I wonder whether it was driver preference to take the Solo on 112 (not a good idea I know), I know there's currently a loan driver at Oldham Depot that loves the Solos up there and has took them out on various Oldham routes on his late turns.
 
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York
Can driver preferences go against planned fleet operational matters?
As said above, depends on OT.

A few years ago, a driver (now relatively high up in Stagecoach Manchester!) who was on loan from First Oldam to York said they’d do some overtime, but only if they got a bendy bus all duty.

Cue a bendy bus going on the most rural and tight route FirstYork operate, the 10 from Poppleton to Stamford Bridge
 

Deerfold

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Surely the Bee Network powers-that-be are well aware of the current driver shortage position and would have incorporated that particular worry into their deliberations when making route timetables part of the tranche system.
I'm not sure what you're asking here. Franchisees are expected to operate as much of the network as possible and face penalties if they don't.
 

Tim33160

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18 Feb 2019
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120
Bee Network have set franchise contracts which the various bus companies are contracted to provide buses to a set timetable, at set fares. TfGM takes all the fares paid

As a contractor they provide buses to that contract. If they fail to keep to the contract, they are penalised

The contractor can't make a change to the contract - they can negotiate and supposedly there are weekly meetings

Current punctuality figures at https://tfgm.com/ways-to-travel/bus/punctuality-report/5-11-may.
TfGM target is 80% of journeys leave on time : within one minute early / 5 mins late (Traffic Commissioner sets target of 95%)

These now include both Tranche One and Tranche Two routes
This week, overall 72.4% of Bee Network buses were on time, compared to 74.6% last week.
Tranche one: 79.1% this week compared with 80.0% last week
Tranche two: 65.0% this week compared with 70.1% last week

No details of cancellations - which separately attract a penalty for the contracted bus company
 

mayneway

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Manchester
That is totally ignoring the current national bus driver shortage position that has been cited many times by bus drivers in discussions on websites. Are Bee Network unaware of that fact?
They must be. They are contributing to the cost of agency drivers at Wigan, Bolton and Heywood.
Not sure how true it is but there’s rumours circulating around the drivers canteen that a number of agency drivers are currently undergoing route training at Oldham due to the severity of the shortage there. So yes it’s an going issue for both operator and TFGM.

I wonder whether it was driver preference to take the Solo on 112 (not a good idea I know), I know there's currently a loan driver at Oldham Depot that loves the Solos up there and has took them out on various Oldham routes on his late turns.
Very much doubt it!
As I keep saying. All three tranche 2 depots are short of vehicles and I’m pretty certain the vehicle that ended up on the 112 was either the only vehicle available at the time, or it was ‘bumped up’ by a roadside inspector maybe due to the brake down etc.

TFGM monitor what vehicle types are used and a mini being used on a peak time service will have raised questions.
 

Tim33160

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18 Feb 2019
Messages
120
Weekly punctuality : Bus punctuality report: 12 - 18 May 2024 Bee Network
https://tfgm.com/ways-to-travel/bus/punctuality-report/12-18-may

This week, 73.3% of Bee Network buses were on time, compared to 72.4% last week.
Tranche One: This week 81.0% compared with 79.7% last week.
Tranche Two: This week 67.1% compared with 66.4% last week.

New addition: Bee Network daily operated kilometres.
The chart shows the actual volume of services delivered compared to what was scheduled (operated kilometres)*. Scheduled kilometres may not be met because journeys are fully or partially cancelled due to: Traffic congestion; Available staff; Engineering or fleet issues. *Operated kilometres are provided by the bus operators.

(the figures provided show recent weeks to be above 98%)
scroll down on https://tfgm.com/ways-to-travel/bus/punctuality-report/12-18-may
 

markymark2000

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New addition: Bee Network daily operated kilometres.
The chart shows the actual volume of services delivered compared to what was scheduled (operated kilometres)*. Scheduled kilometres may not be met because journeys are fully or partially cancelled due to: Traffic congestion; Available staff; Engineering or fleet issues. *Operated kilometres are provided by the bus operators.

(the figures provided show recent weeks to be above 98%)
scroll down on https://tfgm.com/ways-to-travel/bus/punctuality-report/12-18-may
I do wonder how well this is logged as I have seen multiple buses tracking normally on a service (albeit running a bit late) but then the bus gets to the stop and flies past with 'Not in Service' on the destination. Is that logged as operational mileage because it tracked? I don't know how Tranche 2 is so high on operated kilometres unless First, Diamond and Middleton are just doing really really well as Stagecoach Oldham & Queens can't be anywhere near those higher percentages.
 
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slowroad

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23 Jul 2021
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132
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Wales
Is there any news on how passenger numbers are evolving compared to expectations for the early tranches? The Bee Network Committee of the GM Combined Authority was publishing figures on a monthly basis, but last met in March - presumably interrupted by local govt elections.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Weekly punctuality : Bus punctuality report: 12 - 18 May 2024 Bee Network
https://tfgm.com/ways-to-travel/bus/punctuality-report/12-18-may

This week, 73.3% of Bee Network buses were on time, compared to 72.4% last week.
Tranche One: This week 81.0% compared with 79.7% last week.
Tranche Two: This week 67.1% compared with 66.4% last week.

New addition: Bee Network daily operated kilometres.
The chart shows the actual volume of services delivered compared to what was scheduled (operated kilometres)*. Scheduled kilometres may not be met because journeys are fully or partially cancelled due to: Traffic congestion; Available staff; Engineering or fleet issues. *Operated kilometres are provided by the bus operators.

(the figures provided show recent weeks to be above 98%)
scroll down on https://tfgm.com/ways-to-travel/bus/punctuality-report/12-18-may
What's the betting that if these Tranche 1 area and Tranche 2 area punctuality report figures had those achieved by the bus companies prior to the Bee Network being set up. many scathing comments would be expected to appear on websites from anti-private bus company thread contributors who would be at pains to stress how much better matters would be if the buses were brought under control of localised left-wing councils and mayorships , but now that the Bee Network is operational, such comments (especially on a certain "other" Manchester website who shall remain nameless) seem notable by their absence.

Perhaps the Bee Network "head honchos" should take the action their advertising suggests and visits bus depots (and their managers) to "say yellow to the buses" (whatever that means) and give those recalcitrant buses a piece of their mind....:smile:
 

slowroad

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23 Jul 2021
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Wales
What's the betting that if these Tranche 1 area and Tranche 2 area punctuality report figures had those achieved by the bus companies prior to the Bee Network being set up. many scathing comments would be expected to appear on websites from anti-private bus company thread contributors who would be at pains to stress how much better matters would be if the buses were brought under control of localised left-wing councils and mayorships , but now that the Bee Network is operational, such comments (especially on a certain "other" Manchester website who shall remain nameless) seem notable by their absence.

Perhaps the Bee Network "head honchos" should take the action their advertising suggests and visits bus depots (and their managers) to "say yellow to the buses" (whatever that means) and give those recalcitrant buses a piece of their mind....:smile:
Interesting, thanks, but it was passenger numbers I was wondering about…..
 
Joined
18 Jan 2021
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41
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Saddleworth
It's been a good few months now until my area (Oldham/Saddleworth) became Bee Network territory and I have to say from someone who uses the bus occasionally for leisure travel, I've been impressed so far.
I love the colours, the fleet, drivers seem friendly etc.
Seem just as punctual as before - though for leisure use where its not always as important to "be on time" having a live radar is so handy these days regardless of how late it may be

What I am thinking of is, how will service changes and revisions work going forwards.

For me (in my area anyway, I'm guessing same applies across GM), service changes and timetable changes until around Covid era always I remember came in March/April time and the last week of October. Will this be similar with Bee Network going forwards? Or will large scale changes even be a thing.

The last 10-15 years, in Oldham anyway, any service changes have mostly been cuts and curtailments, and little in the way of improvements.

My local service (Greenfield to Piccadilly) was every 30 mins Mon-Sat until 2019. Cut to hourly Greenfield-Oldham after that. Quickly cut to a 2 hour service. Nowadays it's hourly but only between around 10am-3pm and at silly inconsistent departing intervals. Doesn't exist on eves or Sundays.
I'm half hoping Bee Network can aim much better than this and restore this once popular and great service to at least something to what it was.

Alternatively.. when the next round of service changes occur, should I expect further cuts...! We will wait and see.. whenever that may be
 

Deerfold

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26 Nov 2009
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Yorkshire
It's been a good few months now until my area (Oldham/Saddleworth) became Bee Network territory and I have to say from someone who uses the bus occasionally for leisure travel, I've been impressed so far.
I love the colours, the fleet, drivers seem friendly etc.
Seem just as punctual as before - though for leisure use where its not always as important to "be on time" having a live radar is so handy these days regardless of how late it may be

What I am thinking of is, how will service changes and revisions work going forwards.

For me (in my area anyway, I'm guessing same applies across GM), service changes and timetable changes until around Covid era always I remember came in March/April time and the last week of October. Will this be similar with Bee Network going forwards? Or will large scale changes even be a thing.

The last 10-15 years, in Oldham anyway, any service changes have mostly been cuts and curtailments, and little in the way of improvements.

My local service (Greenfield to Piccadilly) was every 30 mins Mon-Sat until 2019. Cut to hourly Greenfield-Oldham after that. Quickly cut to a 2 hour service. Nowadays it's hourly but only between around 10am-3pm and at silly inconsistent departing intervals. Doesn't exist on eves or Sundays.
I'm half hoping Bee Network can aim much better than this and restore this once popular and great service to at least something to what it was.

Alternatively.. when the next round of service changes occur, should I expect further cuts...! We will wait and see.. whenever that may be
There are unlikely to be any cuts in the near future (if only because it would look bad politically - but they know how much the current network will cost in the short term).

I was talking to someone senior in the contracts department at the weekend who was saying that farebox income has been steadily increasing, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are service increases - though I wouldn't like to predict on which routes.
 

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