Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

[Springs Branch]

I'm not sure that timetable is going to get them the results they want for the trial. It'll be useful for some shoppers - - - - - -
- - - The Parklands stop on certain services seems to serve a number of office buildings, so they're targeting office workers who work 7-5?

I suspect the major motivation for this trial - and the reason Aspull councillor Laura Flynn is trumpeting it - is to a re-instate a (sort of) regular daytime bus link for disadvantaged residents of the ~2-mile section of Bolton Rd / Dicconson Lane between Aspull Finger Post and the A6 at Four Gates. This road used to be served by the hourly 715 (Wigan - Aspull - Wingates - Lostock Jn - Bolton) route, until that was truncated to just Bolton - Lostock Jn - Westhoughton around 5 years ago.

There was quite a hue & cry locally when the commercial operator (Diamond, IIRC) cut the 715 from Bolton Rd / Dicconson Lane. Many older residents complained of isolation and lost opportunities to use the bus for shopping, doctors' appointments, "get to the post office for my pension"-type trips. For a while there was an absurd situation with the 715 whereby all the Monday - Saturday daytime commercial journeys were axed, but the TfGM-funded evening and Sunday buses still ran - presumably near-empty.

So, those original complainants must now be happy with the prospect of regular, mid-day buses which will get them to and from Tesco at Middlebrook, or to the medical centre in Whelley.
I'd anticipate residents of the detached / semi-detached houses and new-build estates along the corridor will still be driving to work, or into Manchester to shop, no matter what local bus service is provided.

 

[JD2168]

New Bee Network route being introduced in Wigan by the look of things. Pics on the x account of the local cllr @CllrLauaFlynn.

Not sure how successful this will be, an un memorable timetable to enable a one bus operation isn’t great along with the gaps around school times.

 

[esmith2k5]

When looking at the 615 timetable and the 973 timetable (said school bus) its quite a good timetable all together leading to believe itll hopefully run efficiently, that is apart from only being given 13 minutes to get from Orrell Post

 

[mangad]

Not sure how successful this will be, an un memorable timetable to enable a one bus operation isn’t great along with the gaps around school times.

It doesn't need to be a massive success. It only needs to be successful enough to justify carrying on beyond the year, and hopefully to justify further investment.

 

[domcoop7]

When looking at the 615 timetable and the 973 timetable (said school bus) its quite a good timetable all together leading to believe itll hopefully run efficiently, that is apart from only being given 13 minutes to get from Orrell Post

As someone who lives in basically Orrell Post, and regularly travels to the Town Centre, I'd have thought the chances of making that in 13 minutes are very, VERY, slim. This very morning around 8:00am it took 15 minutes to get from the traffic light junction to the motorway; likewise going "the back way" along Scot Lane and Woodhouse Lane can also take well in excess of that just to clear the traffic junction between those two roads because of the way the priorities are set.

For reference Google Maps puts it at 15 minutes via the main route, and 20 minutes via Woodhouse Lane at this current time (12:30pm on a Wednesday). Good luck to them!

 

[esmith2k5]

As someone who lives in basically Orrell Post, and regularly travels to the Town Centre, I'd have thought the chances of making that in 13 minutes are very, VERY, slim. This very morning around 8:00am it took 15 minutes to get from the traffic light junction to the motorway; likewise going "the back way" along Scot Lane and Woodhouse Lane can also take well in excess of that just to clear the traffic junction between those two roads because of the way the priorities are set.

For reference Google Maps puts it at 15 minutes via the main route, and 20 minutes via Woodhouse Lane at this current time (12:30pm on a Wednesday). Good luck to them!

Yeah this was exactly my point, 13m is beyond unreasonable, however the rest seems decent.

 

[158756]

TfGM's press release about the 615 also mentions that the 132 (Wigan-Trafford Centre) will double in frequency from 27 October.

Major moment as bus franchising delivers first new bus route in Greater Manchester

news.tfgm.com

I think this is a very sensible change to the 132, but TfGM need to improve their publicity for timetable changes. These changes are being announced with just two weeks notice, and as far as I can tell they haven't published the new timetables anywhere yet. Their travel updates page still says there are no upcoming route or timetable changes for buses.

 

[GCH100]

Doubling of the 132 does make a lot of sense, as the route between Tyldesley and Wiogan several years back was every 15 minutes, so this does make sense towards restoring the frequency partually back to its original frequency, and is good for shops in Wigan and the Trafford Centre, in the lead up to Christmas.

 

[markymark2000]

I think this is a very sensible change to the 132, but TfGM need to improve their publicity for timetable changes. These changes are being announced with just two weeks notice, and as far as I can tell they haven't published the new timetables anywhere yet. Their travel updates page still says there are no upcoming route or timetable changes for buses.

I may be misremembering but didn't Labour councillors used to slate bus operators for late announcing timetable changes and not giving details early enough for the public to understand the effects?

 

[M60lad]

Does anybody know how the timetable change on 132 will affect 126 as currently each service is hourly and in theory runs every 30mins from Trafford Centre-Boothstown? With 132 going every 30mins is it going to slot in in between journeys on 126 or are we going to get a situation whereby both 126 & 132 will be running together on the section between Boothstown & Trafford Centre?

 

[158756]

I may be misremembering but didn't Labour councillors used to slate bus operators for late announcing timetable changes and not giving details early enough for the public to understand the effects?

Yes

Does anybody know how the timetable change on 132 will affect 126 as currently each service is hourly and in theory runs every 30mins from Trafford Centre-Boothstown? With 132 going every 30mins is it going to slot in in between journeys on 126 or are we going to get a situation whereby both 126 & 132 will be running together on the section between Boothstown & Trafford Centre?

No idea. There is still no new timetable for the 132 (or any timetable for the 615) on the TfGM site. Bustimes.org doesn't have anything either. The travel updates page has been updated today with minor changes to a couple of services in Rochdale, also at two weeks notice, but nothing for Wigan.


Merged Post 15/10

Does anybody know how the timetable change on 132 will affect 126 as currently each service is hourly and in theory runs every 30mins from Trafford Centre-Boothstown? With 132 going every 30mins is it going to slot in in between journeys on 126 or are we going to get a situation whereby both 126 & 132 will be running together on the section between Boothstown & Trafford Centre?

New timetables are now up at https://tfgm.com/travel-updates/travel-alerts#bus for the 126 and 132 along with a host of other routes with mostly minor changes. The 126 is unchanged for most of the day (some changes in the afternoon) while the 132 is completely retimed, so they will run at 15-15-30 minute intervals on the shared section.

Among the other changes the 8 will now run into the city centre along Chapel Street (probably expecting the current route to be virtually unusable during the Christmas markets) and the section of the 29 between Walkden and Boothstown is withdrawn. All these changes come in on 27 October, so in 12 days. I doubt there are a huge number of passengers on that section of the 29, but withdrawing a section of route at 12 days notice is poor.



Also an odd thing I've noticed looking at the 126 and other services in that area - off peak there are four buses an hour (not evenly spaced) between the Astley area and Leigh on the 35, 126 and 594. But none arrive in Leigh between 8 and 9am.

 

[esmith2k5]

Yes



No idea. There is still no new timetable for the 132 (or any timetable for the 615) on the TfGM site. Bustimes.org doesn't have anything either. The travel updates page has been updated today with minor changes to a couple of services in Rochdale, also at two weeks notice, but nothing for Wigan.


Merged Post 15/10




New timetables are now up at https://tfgm.com/travel-updates/travel-alerts#bus for the 126 and 132 along with a host of other routes with mostly minor changes. The 126 is unchanged for most of the day (some changes in the afternoon) while the 132 is completely retimed, so they will run at 15-15-30 minute intervals on the shared section.

Among the other changes the 8 will now run into the city centre along Chapel Street (probably expecting the current route to be virtually unusable during the Christmas markets) and the section of the 29 between Walkden and Boothstown is withdrawn. All these changes come in on 27 October, so in 12 days. I doubt there are a huge number of passengers on that section of the 29, but withdrawing a section of route at 12 days notice is poor.



Also an odd thing I've noticed looking at the 126 and other services in that area - off peak there are four buses an hour (not evenly spaced) between the Astley area and Leigh on the 35, 126 and 594. But none arrive in Leigh between 8 and 9am.

The 29 is a lot more used than you would think. It id outrageous and we are fighting against it. We are all sick to death of shoddy bus service in Boothstown, cuts after cuts after cuts. BN will not hear the end of this from me, dont care if i have to email daily, ill do it.

 

[Mollman]

Yes



No idea. There is still no new timetable for the 132 (or any timetable for the 615) on the TfGM site. Bustimes.org doesn't have anything either. The travel updates page has been updated today with minor changes to a couple of services in Rochdale, also at two weeks notice, but nothing for Wigan.


Merged Post 15/10




New timetables are now up at https://tfgm.com/travel-updates/travel-alerts#bus for the 126 and 132 along with a host of other routes with mostly minor changes. The 126 is unchanged for most of the day (some changes in the afternoon) while the 132 is completely retimed, so they will run at 15-15-30 minute intervals on the shared section.

Among the other changes the 8 will now run into the city centre along Chapel Street (probably expecting the current route to be virtually unusable during the Christmas markets) and the section of the 29 between Walkden and Boothstown is withdrawn. All these changes come in on 27 October, so in 12 days. I doubt there are a huge number of passengers on that section of the 29, but withdrawing a section of route at 12 days notice is poor.



Also an odd thing I've noticed looking at the 126 and other services in that area - off peak there are four buses an hour (not evenly spaced) between the Astley area and Leigh on the 35, 126 and 594. But none arrive in Leigh between 8 and 9am.

With the 29, I don't recall seeing any consultation on it - I thought that was meant to happen under the new regime? The service change description is pathetic as it not only fails to give a reason for truncating the service but offers no alternative routes to use instead.

 

[Tim33160]

Timetable for new 615 now available on line

From Sunday 27 October, a new 615 bus will be introduced linking Wigan, Scholes, Whelley and Aspull. Buses will run once an hour on Monday to Saturday daytime. This is a permanent service. More information and advice link direct to timetable:
https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...b30d8f9072ac24691d00ce9c9f/615_24-SC-0494.pdf

note the subtle difference in the description: "once an hour" - not "hourly"
Following customer requests, we’re introducing a new route linking Wigan, Scholes, Whelley, Aspull and Middlebrook. Buses will run once an hour on Monday to Saturday daytime

Memorable times! : buses leave Wigan
M-F at 0610 0853 1007 1116 1225 1335 1625 1755 1910 and on
S : 0630 0743 0853 1007 1116 1225 1335 1453 1625 1750 1910
Journey time 32mins mostly - M-F gaps for bus to run school service 973

 

[Statto]

Thinking, would it be worth extending some V2 services to Wigan via Hindley (maybe 2 an hour), or is their not enough buses available without having to divert the route away from the guided busway?

 

[RELL6L]

With the 29, I don't recall seeing any consultation on it - I thought that was meant to happen under the new regime? The service change description is pathetic as it not only fails to give a reason for truncating the service but offers no alternative routes to use instead.

I don’t know the area or the service but the fact that some journeys to Boothstown continue at odd times - early, late, Sundays - would suggest another service in daytime M-S. but there doesn’t seem to be one!

 

[mangad]

I don’t know the area or the service but the fact that some journeys to Boothstown continue at odd times - early, late, Sundays - would suggest another service in daytime M-S. but there doesn’t seem to be one!

Or it's a data entry error.

 

[neilcobbe]

The GM clean air report states that to free up space for work at Bolton Garage, some routes (at great expense!) would be moving to Wigan. The 575 is an obvious candidate. Would others be the 582 or Busway routes. Would drivers volunteer to move though?

Link to the report on this page https://cleanairgm.com/news/greater-manchester-preparing-to-submit-updated-clean-air-plan-proposal/

 

[Deerfold]

Timetable for new 615 now available on line

From Sunday 27 October, a new 615 bus will be introduced linking Wigan, Scholes, Whelley and Aspull. Buses will run once an hour on Monday to Saturday daytime. This is a permanent service. More information and advice link direct to timetable:
https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...b30d8f9072ac24691d00ce9c9f/615_24-SC-0494.pdf

note the subtle difference in the description: "once an hour" - not "hourly"
Following customer requests, we’re introducing a new route linking Wigan, Scholes, Whelley, Aspull and Middlebrook. Buses will run once an hour on Monday to Saturday daytime

Memorable times! : buses leave Wigan
M-F at 0610 0853 1007 1116 1225 1335 1625 1755 1910 and on
S : 0630 0743 0853 1007 1116 1225 1335 1453 1625 1750 1910
Journey time 32mins mostly - M-F gaps for bus to run school service 973

I'm not sure how you can describe 9 buses in 13 hours (Mondays to Fridays) as once an hour. That's not even once every 90 minutes on average.

 

[Statto]

The GM clean air report states that to free up space for work at Bolton Garage, some routes (at great expense!) would be moving to Wigan. The 575 is an obvious candidate. Would others be the 582 or Busway routes. Would drivers volunteer to move though?

Link to the report on this page https://cleanairgm.com/news/greater-manchester-preparing-to-submit-updated-clean-air-plan-proposal/

The 582 would need to interwork with another route if they moved the 582 to Wigan, as Wigan depot is miles away from the nearest point of the 582 route, which i think is Atherton.

 

[ian1944]

The GM clean air report states that to free up space for work at Bolton Garage, some routes (at great expense!) would be moving to Wigan. The 575 is an obvious candidate. Would others be the 582 or Busway routes. Would drivers volunteer to move though?

Link to the report on this page https://cleanairgm.com/news/greater-manchester-preparing-to-submit-updated-clean-air-plan-proposal/

Presumably in the list of depots, Hyde means Hyde Road - or have I missed a new one?

 

[GCH100]

The 582 would need to interwork with another route if they moved the 582 to Wigan, as Wigan depot is miles away from the nearest point of the 582 route, which i think is Atherton.

The nearest point is actually Leigh, not Atherton, so it is quite feasible as several journeys comence from Leigh in any case. Busway routes are slightly more complicated as they would require a large reorganisation of staff, with busway training, and last time they tried to move them out of Bolton to the former Finglands Garage at Rusholme under FirstGroup, the staff didn't want to move, and objected to the change as all busway trained staff live in or around Bolton. Of course the obvious first route to move as said above is the 575 Bolton - Horwich - Wigan, plus a school route that commences in Hindley thats, a Go North West route bust actually operated out of Bolton depot. My suspision is the school route, the 575 and most journeys on the 582.

 

[RELL6L]

The nearest point is actually Leigh, not Atherton, so it is quite feasible as several journeys comence from Leigh in any case. Busway routes are slightly more complicated as they would require a large reorganisation of staff, with busway training, and last time they tried to move them out of Bolton to the former Finglands Garage at Rusholme under FirstGroup, the staff didn't want to move, and objected to the change as all busway trained staff live in or around Bolton. Of course the obvious first route to move as said above is the 575 Bolton - Horwich - Wigan, plus a school route that commences in Hindley thats, a Go North West route bust actually operated out of Bolton depot. My suspision is the school route, the 575 and most journeys on the 582.

I would think the 582 could be run relatively easily from Wigan by interworking it with the 610, at least Mon-Sat, as each runs every 12 minutes and a round trip on both would be a little under 4 hours. This would not be out of the ordinary given other interworking, eg the 35 is worked by Wigan off the 608 while the 10 is worked by Bolton off the 8. The former is the same as Stagecoach used to do while the 10 used to be run by Arriva with Pulsars on a stand alone basis some way from their depot.

 

[PaulWC]

Changes to the Warrington to Altrincham and airport services from January confirmed by Warrington Borough Council:-

Changes to bus services from Warrington to Lymm and Altrincham (CAT5 and X5) | warrington.gov.uk

www.warrington.gov.uk

CAT5 - Warrington Borough Council and TfGM will continue to support the CAT5 service operated by Warrington’s Own Buses, although there will be a reduction in the evening timetable within Greater Manchester. This service will continue to operate to the same route, giving access into the Bee Network for onward travel to Manchester Airport.

X5 – this service, which is currently operated by Warrington’s Own Buses will be replaced in part by a new 5a service from Warrington to Lymm Cross, with a bus set to run every 30 minutes between Warrington and Lymm, providing access into the Bee Network at Lymm Cross.

The remaining part of the X5 from Lymm to Manchester Airport will be replaced by a new Bee Network 289 service from Altrincham to Lymm Cross via Higher Lane and Broomedge, which will provide cross-boundary travel via this alternative route.

Warrington Borough Council Leader and Cabinet Member for highways and transport, Cllr Hans Mundry, said: “We understand that the changes to the X5 bus service will be disappointing news for passengers, although all current links remain available.

“We have worked closely with TfGM on this issue, and while we’ve been unable to find a way to retain the X5, we remain committed to providing the best possible bus services between the town centre and Lymm.

“As well as retaining the CAT5, we’re investing in a new 5a service, an investment that will ensure Lymm continues to be served by reliable, regular buses.”

TfGM Director of Bus, Stephen Rhodes, said: “As we build the Bee Network it’s really important that our services support people travelling within Greater Manchester as well as those travelling in and out of the city-region.

“The X5 was introduced last year as a temporary measure to maintain key links in advance of Bee Network services launching in the area in January.

“We are continuing to part-fund the CAT5 to ensure connections between Warrington and Trafford are maintained, and people wanting to continue their journey to areas currently on the X5 route will be able to do so by changing to new Bee Network services.”

Timetables will be available at warringtonsownbuses.co.uk/news in the coming weeks.

 

[Statto]

The nearest point is actually Leigh, not Atherton, so it is quite feasible as several journeys comence from Leigh in any case. Busway routes are slightly more complicated as they would require a large reorganisation of staff, with busway training, and last time they tried to move them out of Bolton to the former Finglands Garage at Rusholme under FirstGroup, the staff didn't want to move, and objected to the change as all busway trained staff live in or around Bolton. Of course the obvious first route to move as said above is the 575 Bolton - Horwich - Wigan, plus a school route that commences in Hindley thats, a Go North West route bust actually operated out of Bolton depot. My suspision is the school route, the 575 and most journeys on the 582.

I see.

The 582 would need to interwork with another route if that moved to Wigan (maybe 609, or 610 given they have the same frequencies), it would be quite costly to operate if it were a stand alone route operating from Wigan with driver changes done at Leigh.

 

[Tim33160]

Changes to the Warrington to Altrincham and airport services from January confirmed by Warrington Borough Council:-

Changes to bus services from Warrington to Lymm and Altrincham (CAT5 and X5) | warrington.gov.uk

www.warrington.gov.uk

Bee Network Tranche Three route list also has a 290 Altrincham - Dunham - Lymm circular - so presumes this compliments the 289 but via Dunham

 

[PaulWC]

Bee Network Tranche Three route list also has a 290 Altrincham - Dunham - Lymm circular - so presumes this compliments the 289 but via Dunham

I think they were listed as 279/280 which would refer to the current 280 Altrincham - Dunham - Partington service. The Warrington Council page may be a mistake and its the 279 not 289 which will run to Lymm.

 

[Tim33160]

I think they were listed as 279/280 which would refer to the current 280 Altrincham - Dunham - Partington service. The Warrington Council page may be a mistake and its the 279 not 289 which will run to Lymm.

My mistake!

There's also the 288 Altrincham to Airport returning

Tim

 

[PaulWC]

My mistake!

There's also the 288 Altrincham to Airport returning

Tim

No worries, it's Warrington Council who have it listed as the 289. I assume the 288 replaces the airport section of the current X5.

 

[daodao]

Changes to the Warrington to Altrincham and airport services from January confirmed by Warrington Borough Council:-

Changes to bus services from Warrington to Lymm and Altrincham (CAT5 and X5) | warrington.gov.uk

www.warrington.gov.uk

The break-up of route X5 removes the fast direct service from Warrington to Altrincham taking less than 1 hour. Service CAT5, which is being retained (although not fully in the evening) takes nearly 90 minutes for this journey via a very roundabout route.

The news article states that:

Warrington Borough Council Leader and Cabinet Member for highways and transport, Cllr Hans Mundry, said: “We understand that the changes to the X5 bus service will be disappointing news for passengers, although all current links remain available.

“We have worked closely with TfGM on this issue, and while we’ve been unable to find a way to retain the X5, we remain committed to providing the best possible bus services between the town centre and Lymm.

“As well as retaining the CAT5, we’re investing in a new 5a service, an investment that will ensure Lymm continues to be served by reliable, regular buses.”

TfGM Director of Bus, Stephen Rhodes, said: “As we build the Bee Network it’s really important that our services support people travelling within Greater Manchester as well as those travelling in and out of the city-region.

“The X5 was introduced last year as a temporary measure to maintain key links in advance of Bee Network services launching in the area in January.

“We are continuing to part-fund the CAT5 to ensure connections between Warrington and Trafford are maintained, and people wanting to continue their journey to areas currently on the X5 route will be able to do so by changing to new Bee Network services.”

Changes to bus services from Warrington to Lymm and Altrincham (CAT5 and X5) | warrington.gov.uk

www.warrington.gov.uk

Reading between the lines, it seems that TfGM and Warrington Borough Council did not agree fully on the way forward, resulting in poorer future services for through passengers crossing the TfGM boundary once the franchised Bee Network is introduced in Trafford.