John Luxton
Established Member
Do you know I am not exactly sure I as like to buy my tickets from a human so just headed to the counter. It may be to the left as one goes in near the entrance.
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Being charged under byelaw 18.2 by merseyrail
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Puffing Devil
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Not on the day of trial. There's also no need to enter a plea immediately. Presented with new charges, an adjournment request for time to consider would be very much in order.
Fawkes Cat
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And the counter is (I think) to the right as you go in? So it is easy to see how someone unfamiliar with the layout (and the concept of selling tickets from a shop counter rather than a ticket office) might not see the counter as an opportunity to buy.
Surely if a passenger is wandering around looking for a way to pay (having encountered their second broken TVM of the day), the first duty of of the rail staff is to direct them to the shop counter, rather than charge them for not having a ticket.
John Luxton
Established Member
Yes the counter is to the right my reference to the left was the possible location of the ticket machine.
The ticket machine is on the left as you enter. The counter/ticket office is right at the other end of what is in effect a convenience store (convenient for some?), behind a rack of newspapers and magazines. If you were wanting to buy something from the shop it is the obvious place to go, but not the first place one would look for a ticket office, despite signs to that effect. Though I'd have thought if you were intent on buying a ticket and the machine was out of order you would look around carefully or ask someone.
There's a picture here showing a Merseyrail "Mtogo" shop. I don't know where it is but if the one in Liverpool is like that I can see someone easily not realising where they should buy tickets from.
No doubt there will be someone along to point out that as it says "Tickets and Information" just under the ceiling above the counters then it's completely obvious and failing to buy a ticket there is clear evidence of intent to fare evade.
Personally, it seems an utterly bizarre arrangement to me. I've never seen a ticket office where the ticket windows are accessed via a queuing area lined with packets of crisps and chocolates and the like in the UK or anywhere else, and could quite imagine having found a defective ticket machine I'd head back out onto the concourse to look for a manned ticket office.
Look around yes. But look in what seems to be a shop with a ticket machine, as opposed to heading out of the door to look for a ticket office elsewhere in the concourse?
No doubt there will be someone along to point out that as it says "Tickets and Information" just under the ceiling above the counters then it's completely obvious and failing to buy a ticket there is clear evidence of intent to fare evade.
Personally, it seems an utterly bizarre arrangement to me. I've never seen a ticket office where the ticket windows are accessed via a queuing area lined with packets of crisps and chocolates and the like in the UK or anywhere else, and could quite imagine having found a defective ticket machine I'd head back out onto the concourse to look for a manned ticket office.
Look around yes. But look in what seems to be a shop with a ticket machine, as opposed to heading out of the door to look for a ticket office elsewhere in the concourse?
northwichcat
Established Member
Ignore original message. I've found an updated photo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liver...ion#/media/File:Liverpool_Central_Station.jpg
And a second from a slightly different position: https://i2-prod.liverpoolecho.co.uk/incoming/article14739077.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/JS150912298.jpg
And a second from a slightly different position: https://i2-prod.liverpoolecho.co.uk/incoming/article14739077.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/JS150912298.jpg
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Oh...the ones with the massive Tickets & Information sign!
Well yes. But if you think you know what you are looking for (ie a ticket window and an office rather than a corner shop) it's easy to be looking so hard you miss the obvious.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
If I walked into a shop looking for a ticket machine and found it wasn't working the first thing I would do would be to find a human and ask them about it, especially if that shop had a huge yellow sign over the door saying tickets were available there.
Think my advice is "It's a fair cop, guv".
The sign is truly massive.
Note also the additional Tickets and Travel Centre signs pointing towards it. And the pictograms.
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Presumably only if within the time limit for laying new charges - don't many rail related offences have a 6 month period during which charges must be laid?
That's all very well, but having spotted the ticket machine, I don't see why any unfamiliar passenger shouldn't assume that the defunct machine is the total of the facilities as advertised. I wouldn't search among the crisp packets. I too would wander about looking for another machine or a real ticket office.
I personally would advise a not guilty plea by post and a letter to Merseyrail explaining the full circs again and offering to pay the unpaid fare.
As for the machine in the shop, it's absurd that it doesn't have a permanent and clear notice telling passengers to go to the shop counter if it's out of action.
The offence libelled can be amended after the six month period for laying the initial information has expired.
pitdiver
Member
I would like to add that a couple of years ago I was the victim in a case where the dependent was charged with possessing a bladed object in a public place. To which he pleaded not guilty. However just before the trial commenced I was asked if I would be happy with the dependent was charged with a section 4a offence of the Public Order Act. To which he would have pleaded guilty.
The prosecutor on the day agreed, the police agreed, the defence barrister readily agreed. But the senior prosecutor at the CPS did not. So the trial went ahead.
Halfway through the judge ordered that something was not right so the trial was halted, and another trial scheduled for a future date. This happened to be in another 18 months time.
Eventually I came to the decision to retract my statement for various reasons. So the case was closed as the prosecution could offer no evidence. As a matter of interest the date of the new trial was approx 2.5 years after the alleged offence.
The prosecutor on the day agreed, the police agreed, the defence barrister readily agreed. But the senior prosecutor at the CPS did not. So the trial went ahead.
Halfway through the judge ordered that something was not right so the trial was halted, and another trial scheduled for a future date. This happened to be in another 18 months time.
Eventually I came to the decision to retract my statement for various reasons. So the case was closed as the prosecution could offer no evidence. As a matter of interest the date of the new trial was approx 2.5 years after the alleged offence.
That's an either-way offence so the 6 month rule doesn't apply.
northwichcat
Established Member
That would be the logic thing to do. However, some people with previous experience of staff saying the machines are nothing to do with them so email/phone X, might decide not to bother.
Of course if someone spoke to an inspector at the barrier and he pointed the passenger towards the ticket machine, it would also be logical to return to that inspector and say the machine is broken.
True but do note a passenger arriving off a train without a ticket would have a view similar to the man in the blue coat who has arrived by train, not the woman with the H&M bag who's about to travel.
Do you mean the man in the blue coat who appears to be looking directly at the sign?
Haywain
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If you are discussing a photo somewhere, could you let the rest of us into the secret of where to see it?
About 12 posts up
Haywain
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Thank you.
Erm, why? If the cash machine in the railway station wasn't working would you ask a member of railway staff about it? If the ticket machine wasn't working you'd ask someone in Costa about it?
If a member of staff told you to use a ticket machine and you went to it and it wasn't working you'd go back to the person who told you to use it. Trying to pretend otherwise as you are here is laughable.
northwichcat
Established Member
Looking directly at the sign.
If you drew a line straight across from his eyes then he's either looking at the woman walking in the opposite direction or through the window of the shop. He'd be straining his neck considerably if he was looking directly at the sign. Once he reaches the other side of the markers on the ground he might have a clear view of the sign if he turns his head in that direction, rather than looking straight ahead. On the other hand the woman would have had an excellent view of the sign before she reached the barriers. It's not rocket science that they've positioned the sign for it to be seen by passengers yet to make their journey, not passengers who have made their journey.
Haywain
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How about the very large sign above the shop doorway!Looking directly at the sign.
northwichcat
Established Member
Well I'm obviously wasting my time trying to explain to people that passengers don't have 360 vision.
I'll try and simplify it to a very basic level. Imagine you walk on to the platform at the buffer end and board the 2nd carriage of a 4 carriage train. Then you sit at the back of the carriage and face the front. On the next platform there's a 2 carriage train. Both have stopped as close to the buffers as possible and the carriages are the same length. Would you be able to see the passengers on the other train? Does it make it difference if you turn your head, so that you aren't facing the way you would normally look? If you move carriages, does that make a difference? If your train is rammed, does that make a difference?
Haywain
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And you appear to be determined not to see an alternative point of view. In the case which is relevant to the thread, the OP was told where to go to collect their ticket, and therefore was directed towards that particular doorway with a large sign above it. From that perspective it is difficult to believe that they wouldn't have seen it - and it clearly would not have required any unusual movement of the head to see it.
It's pretty much the biggest sign saying "Tickets and Information" that I have seen in my life!
There is also a pictogram of a ticket, just in case you have the slightest doubt.
The man in the blue coat appears to be looking straight at it (the yellow sign not the "yet more" other secondary supprting signage with arrows saying tickets with yet more pictograms)
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northwichcat
Established Member
If you hadn't noticed myself and Djgr were discussing the signage before you jumped in after saying you hadn't seen the photo. Djgr had said "The sign is truly massive. Note also the additional Tickets and Travel Centre signs pointing towards it. And the pictograms." Which is why I pointed out that was the view of a passenger going towards the trains, not coming from the trains.
Out of you, Djgr and myself I'm the only one who has given alternative points of view. You and Djgr both seem to have one opinion - there's a huge sign, every passenger sees it, there's no need for any further discussion. Please don't ever apply for a job in the police!
Haywain
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Just because you give an alternative point of view does not make it right.