Belper - has it ever had a 'proper' service to either Chesterfield/Sheffield or Birmingham/London?

[70014IronDuke]

Taken from this thread: https://railforums.co.uk/threads/tr...to-london-and-similarly-rare-services.236750/

Belper's another odd example. Just one weekday direct train to London at 1758. No direct train back. Why?

Belper is mainly served today, and for a long time now, by trains on the Matlock branch going to Derby or Nottingham/Newark.

It has one down train in the early morning which stops only at Dronfield to Sheffield (which is strange, because I was under the impression it was for students studying in Chesterfield - tough luck on them now! Presumably no longer stops due to pathing reasons?) and ...

one return evening service which is a main line St Pancras service.

Does anyone much use these trains, anyone know?

And did it have more trains in the past on the main axes, ie both to/from Sheffield, to/from London and to/from Birmingham, or has it always been 95% a local stop on Derby - Matlock - (and Manchester Central before the Peak Forest route was closed)?

I have a vague recollection of stopping there on a St Pancras - Man Picc train in 1968 or 69 (when already diverted via Dore), but can't be sure, memory might be playing tricks.

 

[DDB]

Taken from this thread: https://railforums.co.uk/threads/tr...to-london-and-similarly-rare-services.236750/



Belper is mainly served today, and for a long time now, by trains on the Matlock branch going to Derby or Nottingham/Newark.

It has one down train in the early morning which stops only at Dronfield to Sheffield (which is strange, because I was under the impression it was for students studying in Chesterfield - tough luck on them now! Presumably no longer stops due to pathing reasons?) and ...

one return evening service which is a main line St Pancras service.

Does anyone much use these trains, anyone know?

And did it have more trains in the past on the main axes, ie both to/from Sheffield, to/from London and to/from Birmingham, or has it always been 95% a local stop on Derby - Matlock - (and Manchester Central before the Peak Forest route was closed)?

I have a vague recollection of stopping there on a St Pancras - Man Picc train in 1968 or 69 (when already diverted via Dore), but can't be sure, memory might be playing tricks.

The aim of the mainline stops at Belper is for commuters from Belper to Sheffield. Although I am very surprised it doesn't also stop at Chesterfield.

There was a problem for many years as the spec said "one train a day" when what was meant was "one train a day in each direction" and the afternoon peak Sheffield to Belper has only recently appeared.

There is some background on this thread from this very website https://railforums.co.uk/threads/derwent-valley-line-doing-good.42166/

 

[Magdalia]

There was a limited Derby-Sheffield stopping service until the end of 1966. After this was withdrawn the 0640 Birmingham-Leeds continued to call at Belper, and there was still a 1728 Sheffield-Derby in the evening that called at Belper. Shortly after, Belper disappears from the ER PTTs, so I lose track until the all line PTT starts in 1974. From then there is still an 0750 Derby-Leeds calling at Belper, lasting until May 1977, but nothing southbound.

 

[70014IronDuke]

There was a limited Derby-Sheffield stopping service until the end of 1966.

I see. I suppose we are talking about 4-5 trains a day? Were the all stations, including eg Duffield and Ambergate in those days?

After this was withdrawn the 0640 Birmingham-Leeds continued to call at Belper, and there was still a 1728 Sheffield-Derby in the evening that called at Belper. Shortly after, Belper disappears from the ER PTTs, so I lose track until the all line PTT starts in 1974. From then there is still an 0750 Derby-Leeds calling at Belper, lasting until May 1977, but nothing southbound.

Of course, AFAIK they wanted to close Matlock to Derby after severing the line north of Matlock. Perhaps 1966-67 was the nadir of the service, with just a token service to the smaller stations? I'm not sure even if some of them closed, only to be reoponed later?

 

[Magdalia]

I see. I suppose we are talking about 4-5 trains a day? Were the all stations, including eg Duffield and Ambergate in those days?

Of course, AFAIK they wanted to close Matlock to Derby after severing the line north of Matlock. Perhaps 1966-67 was the nadir of the service, with just a token service to the smaller stations? I'm not sure even if some of them closed, only to be reoponed later?

1966 timetable at Belper. I have the WTT all these are shown to be loco hauled. I think this service had operated for quite a few years.

0648 0630 Derby-Sheffield
0801 0640 Birmingham-Bradford FS (Glasgow Central on summer Sats)
0941 0645 Gloucester E-Sheffield (SX)
1735 1721 Derby-Chesterfield (not on summer Sats)
2236 2225 Derby-Sheffield

0713 0605 Sheffield-Derby
1721 1608 Sheffield-Derby
1828 1736 Sheffield-Derby
2043 1727 Bradford FS-Derby
2240 1810 Bradford FS-Derby (sits for 30 mins at Sheffield)

There were more trains via Matlock, some going to/from Manchester Central. Some of these were DMU.

The Leicester-Blackpool and return also called on summer Sats.

 

[Bevan Price]

The services between Belper, Chesterfield & Sheffield were never actually lavish, even when the stopping services existed. Although Belper fared a bit better than the now-closed stations between there and Chesterfield (Wingfield, Stretton & Clay Cross)
The Summer 1958 timetable had similarities to the 1966 timetable (above) but with slightly more trains, especially on Summer Saturdays.

The stopping trains calling at most stations, including Belper were (omitting stopping trains for the Matlock/Manchester line):
Northbound
06:30 Derby - Sheffield
17:12 (SX) Derby - Chesterfield
18:20 (SO) or 18:25 (SX) Derby - Chesterfield
19:42(SX) or 19:58 (SO) Derby - Sheffield
22:15 Derby - Sheffield
SuO
07:05 Derby - Sheffield
19:20 Derby - Sheffield
Add about 17 to 19 minutes to Derby times for times at Belper.

Southbound:
06:04 Sheffield - Derby
08:12 Sheffield - Derby
14:45 Sheffield - Derby
16:06 Sheffield - Derby
17:25 Sheffield - Derby
21:15 Sheffield - Derby
SuO
09:05 Sheffield - Derby
15:55 Sheffield - Derby
Add about one hour to Sheffield times for times at Belper
-------------------------------------
The "express" services calling at Belper were:
Northbound
05:45 (SO, Summer) Desford - Blackpool North (Belper 07:49)
06:45 Birmingham N.St. - Bradford F.Sq. (Glasgow St. Enoch on Saturdays) (Belper 08:14)
08:27 (SO, Summer) Derby - Scarborough (Belper 08:27)
08:50 Leicester - Liverpool Central (Belper 09:50)
07:54 Worcester S.Hill - York (Belper 10:24 (SO) or 10:41(SX)
09:52 (SO, Summer) Gloucester Eastgate - Filey Holiday Camp (Belper 14:45)
SuO
17:42 (Summer only) Leicester - Sheffield (Belper 18:49)

Southbound
09:20 (SO, Summer) Filey Holiday Camp - Kings Norton (Belper 12:52, set down only)
10:25 (SO, Summer) Blackpool North - Leicester (Belper 13:43, set down only)
11:30 Manchester Central - London St. Pancras (Belper 14:04)
11:35 (SO, Summer) Scarborough - Derby (Belper 14:41, set down only)
14:30 Liverpool Central - Nottingham (Belper 17:05)
17:15 Sheffield - Gloucester Eastgate (Belper 18:00)
SuO
07:05 (Summer only) Sheffield - Leicester (Belper 08:05)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 1970 service was similar to 1966 (above, post #3), with one train per day each way.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The services between Belper, Chesterfield & Sheffield were never actually lavish, even when the stopping services existed. Although Belper fared a bit better than the now-closed stations between there and Chesterfield (Wingfield, Stretton & Clay Cross)
The Summer 1958 timetable had similarities to the 1966 timetable (above) but with slightly more trains, especially on Summer Saturdays.

...-------------------------------------
The "express" services calling at Belper were:
Northbound
05:45 (SO, Summer) Desford - Blackpool North (Belper 07:49)
06:45 Birmingham N.St. - Bradford F.Sq. (Glasgow St. Enoch on Saturdays) (Belper 08:14)

Love it! A through service, Belper to Glasgow!

08:27 (SO, Summer) Derby - Scarborough (Belper 08:27)
08:50 Leicester - Liverpool Central (Belper 09:50)
07:54 Worcester S.Hill - York (Belper 10:24 (SO) or 10:41(SX)
09:52 (SO, Summer) Gloucester Eastgate - Filey Holiday Camp (Belper 14:45)
SuO
17:42 (Summer only) Leicester - Sheffield (Belper 18:49)

Southbound
09:20 (SO, Summer) Filey Holiday Camp - Kings Norton (Belper 12:52, set down only)
10:25 (SO, Summer) Blackpool North - Leicester (Belper 13:43, set down only)

One has to ask oneself, why is this set down only?

11:30 Manchester Central - London St. Pancras (Belper 14:04)

Wow, the real deal! A full-on Manchester express!

11:35 (SO, Summer) Scarborough - Derby (Belper 14:41, set down only)
14:30 Liverpool Central - Nottingham (Belper 17:05)
17:15 Sheffield - Gloucester Eastgate (Belper 18:00)
SuO
07:05 (Summer only) Sheffield - Leicester (Belper 08:05)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 1970 service was similar to 1966 (above, post #3), with one train per day each way.

Thank you, Bevan, and @Magdalia. Fascinating stuff. Belper folk really had some interesting services back then.

 

[Llandudno]

It’s a shame that the semi-fast Sheffield - London train can’t stop at Belper, perhaps one train every 2 hours?

 

[Bevan Price]

The "set down only" stops (see above, post #7) were because the trains were primarily for returning holidaymakers, and allowed them to depart as soon as passengers had alighted.

 

[AY1975]

Despite only having a token once-daily direct service to Sheffield, the sign at the top of the slope leading to the northbound platform at Belper from the south end of the station says Platform 1 for Matlock and Sheffield. Obviously the uninitiated could be misled into thinking that this meant there was a regular service to Sheffield. I think Sheffield should be asterisked and it should say in brackets afterwards: (limited service only from this platform. A more regular service operates from Platform 2, changing at Derby).

 

[MisterSheeps]

A more regular service operates from Platform 2, changing at Derby).

How does that work for fares? Is a passenger then charged for a return Belper - Derby? Seems unfair, and is a fairly common situation.

 

[LowLevel]

How does that work for fares? Is a passenger then charged for a return Belper - Derby? Seems unfair, and is a fairly common situation.

No, it is permitted to double back from the Matlock branch to head north.

 

[MisterSheeps]

Thank you @LowLevel !
My David & Charles reprint of the April 1910 Bradshaw Timetable shows 9 services towards Matlock, 11 towards Chesterfield ... the former were all, and only 1 of the latter was not, all stations ... looks like ending the stopping passenger services mostly ended the Belper - Chesterfield services. Ambergate fared better for expresses.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Thank you @LowLevel !
My David & Charles reprint of the April 1910 Bradshaw Timetable shows 9 services towards Matlock, 11 towards Chesterfield ... the former were all, and only 1 of the latter was not, all stations ... looks like ending the stopping passenger services mostly ended the Belper - Chesterfield services.

Interesting. So more onto Chesterfield than to Matlock. But 20 services a day from Derby was pretty good going - must be as good or better than today.

Ambergate fared better for expresses.

That's a real surprise. I confess I don't think I've ever set foot in Ambergaiiit (as the shop foreman at Litchurch Lane would pronounce it), but it's only a village today, isn't it? And with Belper being significantly more important then and now in terms of population.

 

[LowLevel]

Interesting. So more onto Chesterfield than to Matlock. But 20 services a day from Derby was pretty good going - must be as good or better than today.


That's a real surprise. I confess I don't think I've ever set foot in Ambergaiiit (as the shop foreman at Litchurch Lane would pronounce it), but it's only a village today, isn't it? And with Belper being significantly more important then and now in terms of population.

Ambergate was a four way junction station with lines to Pye Bridge, Matlock and Manchester, Derby and Chesterfield. It was a very busy station back in the day!

 

[MisterSheeps]

Ambergate was a four way junction station

it was, but the bit to Pye Bridge never had that much passenger traffic (7 each way in 1910, none by 1947), much more important as a freight route Toton or collieries to Rowsley, 30 each way (M Bentley, District Controllers View, vol 6, p61)

 

[70014IronDuke]

Ambergate was a four way junction station with lines to Pye Bridge, Matlock and Manchester, Derby and Chesterfield. It was a very busy station back in the day!

I can fully believe it was a very busy junction, but was it a very busy station in terms of passenger traffic?

As @MisterSheeps notes, Pye Bridge passenger traffic was very limited (TBH, I'd forgotten about that branch until you mentioned it), so who would you have changing trains here? I'd say it would be limited to a few from the Matlock line going to Chesterfield/Sheffield/York and v v, ie more or less the same sort of passengers who today largely have to change trains at Derby, unless they can time their journey for the 1 train EW and change at Belper.

And Ambergate would surely have had fewer passengers originating from the village for main line trains than Belper. That's why I'm surprised at the service levels.

 

[Dr Hoo]

There is quite a lot about Ambergate in Bill Hudson's excellently researched book Through Limestone Hills (OPC, 1989). Unfortunately this only covers Ambergate to Buxton and Chinley. But Ambergate definitely punched above its weight for a modest settlement. Apparently there were around 645 passengers per weekday in 1922. Of these there were 371 season ticket holders.

Very few Derby-Belper locals towards Sheffield ran beyond Chesterfield. Sheffield took around 90 minutes 'all stations', so not an attractive trip at all.

Veering OT, poor service at Stretton (between Ambergate and Clay Cross) was a contributory reason for the ill-fated Ashover Light Railway never reaching critical (passenger) mass. Stretton was the only interchange between the Ashover and the main line network.

 

[Bevan Price]

There is quite a lot about Ambergate in Bill Hudson's excellently researched book Through Limestone Hills (OPC, 1989). Unfortunately this only covers Ambergate to Buxton and Chinley. But Ambergate definitely punched above its weight for a modest settlement. Apparently there were around 645 passengers per weekday in 1922. Of these there were 371 season ticket holders.

Very few Derby-Belper locals towards Sheffield ran beyond Chesterfield. Sheffield took around 90 minutes 'all stations', so not an attractive trip at all.

Veering OT, poor service at Stretton (between Ambergate and Clay Cross) was a contributory reason for the ill-fated Ashover Light Railway never reaching critical (passenger) mass. Stretton was the only interchange between the Ashover and the main line network.

And Clay Cross station was over a mile from Clay Cross centre (which is located on top of Clay Cross Tunnel), so not surprising that it did not survive.

 

[MisterSheeps]

Stretton was the only interchange between the Ashover and the main line

OT : The hill from the works to Clay Cross station seems easily possible to have been negotiable by the Ashover (it had a freight branch), but the reality was that it was mainly a route for shifting limestone to the works, the passenger traffic was an afterthought, and lorries took over.

 

[70014IronDuke]

There is quite a lot about Ambergate in Bill Hudson's excellently researched book Through Limestone Hills (OPC, 1989). Unfortunately this only covers Ambergate to Buxton and Chinley. But Ambergate definitely punched above its weight for a modest settlement. Apparently there were around 645 passengers per weekday in 1922. Of these there were 371 season ticket holders.

Both seem extraordinarily high numbers, especially the latter. 2019- pre-Covid it was getting just 110 - 120 per day. Did the season ticket holders include railway workers commuting to Derby?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Both seem extraordinarily high numbers, especially the latter. 2019- pre-Covid it was getting just 110 - 120 per day. Did the season ticket holders include railway workers commuting to Derby?

Probably. (‘Free’ elements to ‘residential’ travel were a lot less generous back then.)