gordonthemoron
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If they debendify bendy buses, how will they get round corners?
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Bendy bus withdrawal from London
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John @ home
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Shhh! Don't tell people about the secret rebendification programme until it has been officially announced!If they debendify bendy buses, how will they get round corners?
The same way buses got round corners previously. ie, not be ridiculously long and a danger to other road users and pedestrians.If they debendify bendy buses, how will they get round corners?
ralphchadkirk
Established Member
No need for sarcasm. Also, you missed the point. The fact remains that there is no need for buses to bend and bendy buses are extremely dangerous. Do you disagree with that?
Yes. Do you have any stats for that? If they're so dangerous why have they been used in Yorkshire for over 20 years without calls for their withdrawal?
starrymarkb
Established Member
The Citaro G has a tighter turning circle then the rigid version. Shorter wheelbase on each section. 12m is the max length without a steering tag axle (and if you look at all the warnings on trucks with Rear wheel steer, is that better
)Also the number of cyclists killed by them? ZERO - despite all the claims, it never happened! Thing is you have to give large vehicles respect and realise that they will cut the corner because their turning circle isn't as good as a car or bike.
The Evening Standard didn't like them (Daily Mail Group hates anything German, still in denial over their support for Hitler in the 30s) and organised a full campaign against them
Personal experience of being cut up by them! And, there are often calls for their withdrawal in letters published in the Yorkshire Press.
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Ah, you admit one of the problems with them.
Tom B
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Bendy buses have been in use for over 30 years now, despite what Londoners may think!
This didn't happen: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7173185.stm
This didn't happen either:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6517893.stm
Neither did this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/4942792.stm
And none of these happened:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...-threat-to-police-over-bendy-bus-criticism.do
Yeah it's all a conspiracy, bendy buses are totally safe guaranteed and no-one has ever been even slightly injured by one and there are no near misses... :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:
This didn't happen either:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6517893.stm
Neither did this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/4942792.stm
And none of these happened:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...-threat-to-police-over-bendy-bus-criticism.do
Yeah it's all a conspiracy, bendy buses are totally safe guaranteed and no-one has ever been even slightly injured by one and there are no near misses... :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:
But... other busses cut corners too, because they have a larger turning circle too!
But not as much as a bendy bus does. But for me the biggest problem is when they overtake and pull in, in front of you, rather than turning.
John @ home
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There were more informative sessions on the roll-out of Pay-as-you-Go on National Rail, withdrawal of some non-Oyster tickets, gating at National Rail stations and debendification of London buses. I will update appropriate threads later today.
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Leeds and York both have the same FTRs, and it's the same story over here. Not many people like them, and half the time they are replaced by a double decker anyway.
Agreed. It's appauling how Farce claim that they are a replacement for a tram system! Unbelievable! They have pretty much none of the advantages of trams, and nearly all of the drawbacks. They are replaced with double deckers after approx 7pm. It's quicker to cycle than get the bus for almost any journey, including the entire end-to-end journey, even off peak and with the host selling tickets.
I have heard that before, that they take all the qualities of a tram but without the rails. I know in York the council had to put a lot of investment into the roads to accomodate the buses, but there are still many places in the city centre which are brought to a standstill when two of them meet (usually bottom of Micklegate/George Hudson Street and the corner at Spurriergate).
The student papers here had serveral articles on them when they first arrived, and it wasn't long before the ticket manchine on board was taken out of use as it was inadequate.
I don't rate First as a bus operator, and I thought Stagecoach in Newcastle was bad. In the summer they chnaged the route of the 4 due to roadworks but didn't put posters on the bus stops! When I emailed them it was due to a "breakdown of communication" between Worst and City of York Council, yet for the whole time the roadworks were on I didn't see one poster at my local stops.
The student papers here had serveral articles on them when they first arrived, and it wasn't long before the ticket manchine on board was taken out of use as it was inadequate.
I don't rate First as a bus operator, and I thought Stagecoach in Newcastle was bad. In the summer they chnaged the route of the 4 due to roadworks but didn't put posters on the bus stops! When I emailed them it was due to a "breakdown of communication" between Worst and City of York Council, yet for the whole time the roadworks were on I didn't see one poster at my local stops.
90019
Established Member
Are you seriously trying to suggest that this is only something bendy buses do?
How about;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/8453184.stm
Or;
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1211801/Bus-crashes-betting-shop-killing-customer.html
How about;
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...ker-ploughs-into-shop-after-crash-with-van.do
Or;
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/145716-fifteen-in-hospital-after-birmingham-bus-crash
Or this;
http://img2.photographersdirect.com/img/9670/wm/pd159707.jpg
I dunno, but I don't see any hint of articulation in those buses.
If you respect large vehicles, you'll be fine. However, if you take risks, it's only a matter of time (and I speak as someone who cycles, drives and uses the bus
). I saw a guy yesterday who thought it would be a good idea to go up the inside of a bus that was indicating and pulling into a bus stop.Some of them, yes, if you actually read the articles then you would realise that some of them are definitely due to articulation, some of them are probably due to articulation and some of them are general flaws that apply to buses.
If they are claiming that bendy buses are a viable alternative to trams, then clearly trams are massively safer so that's a huge flaw in their argument.
If they are just claiming they are better than normal buses, well are you seriously saying that none of the problems I linked to are due to articulation?
Well exactly, road transport is far less safe than rail. Which ties in with my other arguments about the fact that some people want rail to be unaffordable which forces people onto the roads, this makes people less safe. But the people who want rail to be unaffordable claim to do so on the basis of safety. But that's a different topic.
So? Articulated buses are unsafe for the reasons your links provide and more!
Not true. What if the large vehicles don't respect you?
And by respect, do you mean if one of them starts overtaking you, then to save your life you have to do an emergency brake? That's not about respecting the vehicle at all.
Yes that's a stupid idea, but you also get buses overtaking before stops. Surely you have witnessed that, if you do cycle a lot and there are a lot of bendies where you are? If you have not then I can only speculate that it may be down to different driving styles.However, if you take risks, it's only a matter of time (and I speak as someone who cycles, drives and uses the bus
CarterUSM
Established Member
Passengers or not. I do not see these buses any more or less safe in traffic than an articulated lorry. If you don't like them, don't use them, if you feel unsafe when the overtake you, stay well back, if they cut you up, that's poor driving on their part. Then apply defensive driving if you haven't already or don't drive in that manner. On the other hand, don't see them much in Glasgow anymore, they might even have been withdrawn. Couldn't be sure though.
Hard to do this if you don't have a car and they are the only type of bus on your route.
Bendy buses are used quite successfully all over the world and I remember using them in Sweden about 30 years ago. We had them before in London if I remember correctly? I happen to like the bendy buses, and despite their mechanical problems, I've had more bad experiences with British built buses (such as the Optare buses we have here, that in less than a year have had multiple breakdowns, heating/ventilation problems and leaky windows).
The fact is, the roads aren't suitable in London for the routes the bendy buses use - which is why they mount kerbs and traffic islands (some of which have since been moved after they were looking battered - take the road where the 73 turns onto New Oxford St as just one example of many). If nobody has died, well that's a good thing - but there's more to it than that.
Take any stop in central London and the bendy buses will end up stopping miles back because of their length, and then leave and overtake - leaving people behind. If you're a wheelchair user, you're simply going to stand (sic) a good chance of not catching your bus as it could be 2-3 buses behind. Okay, that's the fault of the driver but you must still try and reduce the problem - or split the stops into lots more individual ones, which only confuses passengers and annoys those who can actually take a number of buses to get to a destination.
It was a silly idea to introduce them, although perhaps they can still work in the suburbs. It's not that bendy buses in themselves are evil - but you surely match the right tool for the job?
The other thing that everyone knows about but people in power seem to deny is the fare evasion problem. Do you know anyone that doesn't refer to the bendy buses as being 'free'. Okay, so some 40% or more of Londoners don't even HAVE to pay, but on a bendy it's pretty much everyone. The driver doesn't even check your ticket if you board through the front set of doors. The number of inspection teams are so small, it's simply not worth worrying about.. and in any case, it's £25 if you do get caught and pay promptly.
As a consequence, we either have overcrowded buses that needn't be or there's a huge loss of revenue. Either way, a return to normal buses should be beneficial for either a) congestion or b) increased revenue.
At the end of the day, the buses are surely not being scrapped? When they come off-lease they can be moved elsewhere. No harm done.
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starrymarkb
Established Member
But is it, haven't PVRs had to be massively increased on the routes that have been un-bendied.
As for fare evasion, why not do more checks? That's not the buses fault
As for fare evasion, why not do more checks? That's not the buses fault
True, but do articulated lorries constantly go through narrow congested streets of York? Of course not! You completely miss the point.
Are you serious?! You can't be. How can not using them make other road users safe?! That doesn't just miss the point, it's on a different subject entirely. I wasn't discussing their interior or passenger comfort at all.
So you find their dodgy overtaking acceptable and you feel that the victim is the one who should modify their behaviour? Isn't that like me saying "If you see someone yielding a gun, stay well back"? That doesn't address the cause of the problem does it?!
So? The fact is they will be poorly driven on occasion. You sound like the pro-gun lobby in the USA who sees guns as not the problem.
Are you telling me that the solution to this bad driving is for the victims of it to modify their behaviour? Do you really feel that's right? And what "manner" should one not "drive" (or ride) in?
So you don't have a lot of experience of them?
anthony263
Established Member
The FTR's we have in swansea seem to be ok, although you do here some old people complaining about them although most of the feedback has been extremely good, they are especially good on match days at the liberty stadium.
Half the problems i have heard about seem to be the fault of other road users etc
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If you think first & Stagecoach are bad then you should come & see how bad veolia have got here in south wales
No it isn't, but if a company promotes a product as much better than a rival on the basis that loading times are reduced due to factors such as increased door size, etc etc, then they really should admit what the drawbacks of such features are. What I really have a problem with is that the makers/operators of bendy buses are constantly exaggerating the so-called positive aspects of bendy buses, but they NEVER admit any of the drawbacks. They make absolutely absurd claims that they are a decent alternative to a tram system and that is simply not acceptable. I'd have more respect for them if they admitted the many drawbacks of bendies and stopped exaggerating their advantages.
However the biggest issue for me is with the safety aspects of other road users and pedestrians, particularly in a city like York where the roads are not suitable for their use.
Of people using them? That's not the issue and I don't deny that the FTRs are not bad from an on-board perspective.
Because they work in teams and that means you need to employ more people. Each person must earn a fairly respectable salary. Some bean counter will have decided it's better to let them go free - as it's money they never had in the first place.
I wish we lived in a world where you could just say 'right, let's get another 100 inspectors out there by tomorrow' and there was some magical agency that could supply them!
Otherwise we scrap fares completely, get all of public transport to be subsidised by the tax payer, and let everyone travel for free all the time.
The bus design is partly to blame for fare evasion, as the design allows people to board that aren't made to present a ticket or pay for their journey. It works purely on trust, or the fear of a team of inspectors coming on - which is INCREDIBLY unlikely. You've suggested a perfectly good solution, but it can't happen due to cost. Therefore, you must look at another solution - which could perhaps be to lock out the middle and rear set of doors, or put a conductor on - but that would also have another cost, even greater than more inspectors if you're running lots of buses.
I'm not saying bendy buses are bad, but when I was in York on the FTR (which wasn't very futuristic in my mind) they had a conductor - so it's a totally different story.
London will almost certainly be better off without the bendy buses, or at least central London at any rate.
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ralphchadkirk
Established Member
Well if you were trying to sell something would you tell prospective buyers about it's downsides?
True, but surely people in charge of transport in London can see through the hype. They didn't buy the bendy buses purely by reading a glossy brochure did they?!
Nothing said now wasn't said before their introduction. It has nothing to do with politics, even though it became that on the basis of Boris saying he'd scrap them - so to agree would make you a pompous Tory supporter.
Nothing said now wasn't said before their introduction. It has nothing to do with politics, even though it became that on the basis of Boris saying he'd scrap them - so to agree would make you a pompous Tory supporter.
ralphchadkirk
Established Member
I certainly hope not, I would hope they did their research - like anyone buying anything of value.
CarterUSM
Established Member
No yorkie, I had plenty of experience of them when they were in use in glasgow and found them to be fine if a little unremarkable. The incidents you have referenced would hardly call for them to be taken off the road. If you've got your knickers in such a twist about them, why don't you contact the ministry of transport and voice your concerns of their poor safety and unsuitability for britain's urban road network. 
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