Bendy Buses in the UK

[Tetchytyke]

I assume you're supposed to board through the front door to show the driver, who presses a button on the machine so there's a cut of the TC fare attributed to the bus.

Only holders of bus saver tickets have to use the front door. There's nothing to say paper Travelcard holders must use the front door.

The vast majority of NBfL services do not have conductors, and the 507/521 have multi-door boarding on the fixed Citaros.

Getting rid of the bendies was just an expensive political stunt, as was the NBfL. Still, Londoners kept voting for the white elephants.

 

[Be3G]

Only holders of bus saver tickets have to use the front door. There's nothing to say paper Travelcard holders must use the front door.

There is actually. This is why I mentioned the Red Arrow routes earlier, as their system is different to the NBfL, confusingly. I think I read once that it's because a significant proportion of the 507/521's passengers are printed travelcard season holders (which makes sense), so it was deemed a risk worth taking letting them board from either door without being checked.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There is actually.

The sign on the doors only says that the holders of bus saver tickets have to board at the front door.

 

[90019]

If they like the double-decker bit so much, why not make it an articulated double-decker bus?

 

[radamfi]

Cyclist in the Netherlands, unlike the ones in Britain, use their eyes, and don't go though red lights or ride up one way streets the wrong way.

In the Netherlands, bendy buses and cyclists co-exist happily because they are almost separated. The joint bus-cycle lane common in the UK is unknown there because it is considered even less desirable than mixing bikes and cars.

In the Netherlands cyclists regularly ride up one-way streets the "wrong way", but this is because it is often allowed, simply by putting up a sign saying "except cyclists" below the no entry sign. This is very common on narrow streets in city centres. Even in London there are a quite a few examples of this, for example in Camden borough. By going the "wrong way" where it is allowed, it is possible to cycle most of the way from Holborn to Kings Cross using such one-way streets.

 

[Deerfold]

The 521 is only busy at peak times, I think the rigids are fine

It certainly gets busier - presumably why the frequency jumps from 6bph in the middle of the day to 30bph in the busiest morning hour.

I do recall the Standard running an article on all the complaints from passengers on the first day after the bendies were replaced - despite all their previous anti-bendy articles.

Of course it also costs millions more each year to run the smaller rigid buses than bendy buses.

 

[Busaholic]

The 507 and 521 are going to be converted to total electric bus operation next year, the shortness of the routes and the availability at the end of every rounder of charging capabilities at Waterloo presumably being crucial factors. Perhaps we'll see the reintroduction of the Red Arrow name too, though maybe not as it might imply that someone had made the wrong decision in the first place to scrap the name. Kingsway Subway, electric buses, plus ca change!

 

[Bungle965]

The 507 and 521 are going to be converted to total electric bus operation next year, the shortness of the routes and the availability at the end of every rounder of charging capabilities at Waterloo presumably being crucial factors. Perhaps we'll see the reintroduction of the Red Arrow name too, though maybe not as it might imply that someone had made the wrong decision in the first place to scrap the name. Kingsway Subway, electric buses, plus ca change!

Is that the route in London that BYD and Alexander Dennis are teaming up for. I do wonder how that will pan out.
Sam

 

[the101]

The 507 and 521 are going to be converted to total electric bus operation next year, the shortness of the routes and the availability at the end of every rounder of charging capabilities at Waterloo presumably being crucial factors. Perhaps we'll see the reintroduction of the Red Arrow name too, though maybe not as it might imply that someone had made the wrong decision in the first place to scrap the name. Kingsway Subway, electric buses, plus ca change!

Recharging after every round trip?! Even if the range of these buses is only 100 miles (and I suspect it will be higher) then as long as buses are allocated sensibly they should need to charge once a day, or twice for those which sit off between peaks.

 

[Busaholic]

Recharging after every round trip?! Even if the range of these buses is only 100 miles (and I suspect it will be higher) then as long as buses are allocated sensibly they should need to charge once a day, or twice for those which sit off between peaks.

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting they'd NEED to recharge every trip, just that the capability will be there. Having said that, don't the ones operating Bletchley to Milton Keynes get a small recharge every round trip?

 

[Antman]

It certainly gets busier - presumably why the frequency jumps from 6bph in the middle of the day to 30bph in the busiest morning hour.

I do recall the Standard running an article on all the complaints from passengers on the first day after the bendies were replaced - despite all their previous anti-bendy articles.

Of course it also costs millions more each year to run the smaller rigid buses than bendy buses.

I'm not sure that's true, rigids are obviously more fuel efficient and what is the point in running bendys off peak on the 521 just for a small number of passengers? The biggest problem with bendys in Central London is bus stop blocking and the delays to other services.
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The 507 and 521 are going to be converted to total electric bus operation next year, the shortness of the routes and the availability at the end of every rounder of charging capabilities at Waterloo presumably being crucial factors. Perhaps we'll see the reintroduction of the Red Arrow name too, though maybe not as it might imply that someone had made the wrong decision in the first place to scrap the name. Kingsway Subway, electric buses, plus ca change!

I don't think there is any point in the Red Arrow name which fell by the wayside, it would mean nothing to most passengers.

The 312, South Croydon to Norwood Junction is also being converted to electric buses

 

[jon0844]

I forgot to mention just how much of a PITA the bendy buses were at stops. Want the third bus? That's a long walk, and don't think it will wait and pull forward (even if you have a wheelchair or buggy). Once it closes the door, it will overtake the other buses at the stop.

Of course, that's not the fault of the bus itself - but the way they were driven.

 

[Antman]

I forgot to mention just how much of a PITA the bendy buses were at stops. Want the third bus? That's a long walk, and don't think it will wait and pull forward (even if you have a wheelchair or buggy). Once it closes the door, it will overtake the other buses at the stop.

Of course, that's not the fault of the bus itself - but the way they were driven.

And that for me was why the bendys were unsuitable for Central London although I did think the 18 was a reasonably good choice as it only served the edge of the central zone and had much of the route to itself so there weren't too many problems at bus stops.

 

[edwin_m]

I forgot to mention just how much of a PITA the bendy buses were at stops. Want the third bus? That's a long walk, and don't think it will wait and pull forward (even if you have a wheelchair or buggy). Once it closes the door, it will overtake the other buses at the stop.

Of course, that's not the fault of the bus itself - but the way they were driven.

Arguably isn't it the fault of the conventional buses in front having much longer dwell times?

 

[Antman]

Arguably isn't it the fault of the conventional buses in front having much longer dwell times?

That's another myth, that the artic has a much shorter dwell time.

Comparisons could be made on the long common section of the 36/436 and the 53/453 and there really was no significant difference in fact often conventional bus was quicker.

 

[MCR247]

That's another myth, that the artic has a much shorter dwell time.



Comparisons could be made on the long common section of the 36/436 and the 53/453 and there really was no significant difference in fact often conventional bus was quicker.

Aren't you agreeing with him?

 

[jon0844]

The problem was worst when it was more than one bendy bus. Of course the simple solution was to wait for the buses in front to leave then pull in but that rarely happens.

If you're not willing or able to run to the buses behind, you'll likely not get on.

 

[Antman]

Aren't you agreeing with him?

I thought he was saying that conventional buses have longer dwell times than artics?
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The problem was worst when it was more than one bendy bus. Of course the simple solution was to wait for the buses in front to leave then pull in but that rarely happens.

If you're not willing or able to run to the buses behind, you'll likely not get on.

Indeed, get two or three bendys in a row which wasn't unheard of and you'll need to be pretty fit to get whatever bus is behind them.

 

[Robertj21a]

I thought he was saying that conventional buses have longer dwell times than artics?
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Indeed, get two or three bendys in a row which wasn't unheard of and you'll need to be pretty fit to get whatever bus is behind them.

True, at times. Even so, that's not the fault of the concept of using articulated buses. Better traffic management can often help such issues, along with possible tweaking of the timetable, better central control and better driver behaviour.

London is just so far behind the times in such issues and yet they have the Oyster card which is the ideal medium for fare collection.

 

[Antman]

True, at times. Even so, that's not the fault of the concept of using articulated buses. Better traffic management can often help such issues, along with possible tweaking of the timetable, better central control and better driver behaviour.

London is just so far behind the times in such issues and yet they have the Oyster card which is the ideal medium for fare collection.

Artics are fine outside Waterloo station in the morning when everybody is boarding but when there are people trying to get off at the same time and the bus is packed they can be a nightmare and dwell times are likely to be a lot longer than on a conventional bus.

In what way do you think London is behind the times?

All things considered I'm really not surprised that bendybuses have never caught on in the UK.

 

[Robertj21a]

Artics are fine outside Waterloo station in the morning when everybody is boarding but when there are people trying to get off at the same time and the bus is packed they can be a nightmare and dwell times are likely to be a lot longer than on a conventional bus.

In what way do you think London is behind the times?

All things considered I'm really not surprised that bendybuses have never caught on in the UK.

Dwell times are not longer than a conventional bus. You only had to watch a London artic swallow up vast numbers to realise that.

In my book, London is 'Behind the times' inasmuch that it has reintroduced 'conductors', open platforms and other Boris silliness, while not fully investigating the use of tri-axle double deckers and reviewing how artics can be properly used. TfL insists on running all routes end-to-end (in theory at least) when most commercial operators would have been more innovative.

 

[the101]

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting they'd NEED to recharge every trip, just that the capability will be there. Having said that, don't the ones operating Bletchley to Milton Keynes get a small recharge every round trip?

I'm not sure there will be recharging capability en route; at the depot certainly, as with the pair of BYDs and two Irizar i2es they are already geared up for that. That said, Leon Daniels has been on record saying that there is/was a worry about plugging in a depot full of electric buses at the same time and whether the grid is up to that kind of draw. Presumably it has been dealt with, or will be before the BYD-Enviros enter servie.

The two Enviro400 virtual electrics for the 69s will definitely be charged 'in the field' at Canning Town and Walthamstow, however, although that is to enable the diesel engine in them to be used as little as possible, and if charging is not possible for whatever reason they can function as 'normal' hybrids, if such a thing exists...

I think the reason for the MK StreetLites require recharging at the end of each trip is that their battery capacity (being lightweight vehicles) is lower than would be possible on a heavyweight 18-tonne GVW single-decker. The concept is a good one, but the application - with the metal thing underneath which lowers on chains (!) to take charge - is bizarre in the extreme.

Volvo have shown how to handle en-route charging with the street furniture mounted pantograph, which is coming to some 7900 hybrids in Edinburgh in due course and is already in use in Hamburg. They made a huge thing of it when it was launched at the Hannover trade show last year and understandably so.

 

[Busaholic]

Is that the route in London that BYD and Alexander Dennis are teaming up for. I do wonder how that will pan out.
Sam

Two routes - although both have Waterloo as a terminus they do not meet each other in practice so no interworking takes place, not that that is a practice condoned in London anyway! Yes, 51 buses ordered for the two routes from BYD all with ADL Enviro bodies.

With Waterloo also being the location of the depot, and with offpeak headways being so much lower than in the peaks, it could be built in that buses run in every other trip and the driver transfers to a freshly recharged bus. Slightly more logistically complicated with the 507 than the 521, but still quite feasible.

 

[Antman]

Dwell times are not longer than a conventional bus. You only had to watch a London artic swallow up vast numbers to realise that.

In my book, London is 'Behind the times' inasmuch that it has reintroduced 'conductors', open platforms and other Boris silliness, while not fully investigating the use of tri-axle double deckers and reviewing how artics can be properly used. TfL insists on running all routes end-to-end (in theory at least) when most commercial operators would have been more innovative.

I worked on the buses long enough to know that artics are no quicker overall than conventional buses, dwell times vary at different stops depending on circumstances.

I'm curious to know what you mean about how artics can be properly used?
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I'm not sure there will be recharging capability en route; at the depot certainly, as with the pair of BYDs and two Irizar i2es they are already geared up for that. That said, Leon Daniels has been on record saying that there is/was a worry about plugging in a depot full of electric buses at the same time and whether the grid is up to that kind of draw. Presumably it has been dealt with, or will be before the BYD-Enviros enter servie.

The two Enviro400 virtual electrics for the 69s will definitely be charged 'in the field' at Canning Town and Walthamstow, however, although that is to enable the diesel engine in them to be used as little as possible, and if charging is not possible for whatever reason they can function as 'normal' hybrids, if such a thing exists...

I think the reason for the MK StreetLites require recharging at the end of each trip is that their battery capacity (being lightweight vehicles) is lower than would be possible on a heavyweight 18-tonne GVW single-decker. The concept is a good one, but the application - with the metal thing underneath which lowers on chains (!) to take charge - is bizarre in the extreme.

Volvo have shown how to handle en-route charging with the street furniture mounted pantograph, which is coming to some 7900 hybrids in Edinburgh in due course and is already in use in Hamburg. They made a huge thing of it when it was launched at the Hannover trade show last year and understandably so.

I thought the buses for the 69 were totally electric and don't have a diesel engine?

 

[Deerfold]

Two routes - although both have Waterloo as a terminus they do not meet each other in practice so no interworking takes place, not that that is a practice condoned in London anyway! Yes, 51 buses ordered for the two routes from BYD all with ADL Enviro bodies.

There's plenty of routes with interworking in London.

 

[MCR247]

I thought he was saying that conventional buses have longer dwell times than artics?

Sorry I misread your post

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm curious to know what you mean about how artics can be properly used?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Have you seen and/or travelled on them all across Europe ? - if so, you'll readily appreciate that London has rather a lot to learn.

 

[Antman]

Have you seen and/or travelled on them all across Europe ? - if so, you'll readily appreciate that London has rather a lot to learn.

What might work in other parts of mainland Europe does not necessarily work in London

 

[GaryMcEwan]

McGill's seem to have no bother using them in the tight one way systems of Glasgow...

 

[Robertj21a]

What might work in other parts of mainland Europe does not necessarily work in London

Ah yes, of course, the 'Not Invented Here' approach to everything.