Best and worst Prime Ministers for the railways since 1945

[Senex]

As you said, all those decisions were "made by BR". Thatcher hated the railways.

As I understood it the first Bob Reid was able to establish much better relations with Whitehall and with ministers than had existed previously and on the basis that his management of BR came to be trusted government actually authorised very significant levels of investment. It was this new and working relation ship with government, continued under Bob Reid II, that John Major smashed up by agreeing to a form of privatisation that BR was against and that very much the scheme of a small coteries of senior civil servants.

 

[RichmondCommu]

As you said, all those decisions were "made by BR". Thatcher hated the railways.

However surely the expenditure was approved by the Government?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

How many engineers would have been based in Whitehall?

Nil , or less than zero ....

 

[muddythefish]

However surely the expenditure was approved by the Government?

As far as I remember BR was given a (inadequate) lump sum by the Treasury in those days and left to get on with it.

Under the Tories, funding fell from £1.3bn in 1982 to £568m in 1989, by which time BR was one of the most efficient operators in Europe, albeit with services and infrastructure cut to the bone.

 

[coppercapped]

I don't disagree that Germany was in a much worse state than we were come the end of the war AND that their recovery bordered on the miraculous. They had little choice about how the Marshall Aid was used.

However, we had choices or at least the appearance of choice. We chose the Empire.We also had differing economic challenges to face and a desire ( expressed by all senior politicians) to preserve and revive the empire. They felt the empire would save us economically ( and it did to start with) not understanding the empire was gone and that we should have reversed out of that mechanism asap after 1945 and followed the American advice about getting closer to Europe.

I also disagree that the money went, solely, on nationlaisation or welfare. It didn't. It went on all manner of things associated with pretending to be major power in the world , as a force in the world economy and in trying to regain our post WWI role as the banker to the world with the key world currency. German had none of that. They had one choice: rebuild.

PS - I suspect the Conservtiaves of the time under Churchill would have taken a similar approach to the empire and sterling. Were they not as economically illiterate for believing the same things? ( I accept they would not have spent vast tranches of that money on welfare or nationalisation but would, surely, have tried to prop up sterling )

The main point about the German recovery was that it was not centrally planned but market forces were allowed their head in the framework of a social market economy. In the UK Ministries were still allocating steel production to users in the early 1950s and deciding air routes and the planes that should use them. Anyone remember British South American Airways?

I never suggested that all the Anglo-American Loan or Marshall Aid went on nationalisation or welfare - but a lot of it did so. If the UK Government had set up an institute like the German Kreditanstalt für Wiederaufbau (Credit Institute for Reconstruction) then things might have been very different. This was set up using some of the Marshall Aid money to make loans available to public and private organisations for, essentially, infrastructure projects - the normal banking system being in a parlous state in 1949. The money had to be repaid and was then available for other projects. Instead the Marshall Aid money was treated the same way as general taxation and frittered away - some of it could have been used as a rotating credit for infrastructure, but it wasn't.

I do agree with you that in the aftermath of the war such changes of attitude and emphasis would have been very difficult - especially as the war had been fought to save our way of life. Almost certainly the Conservatives would have made similar foreign policy decisions as Attlee did had they been in power at the time. Some of the expenditures east of Suez were certainly justified - for example keeping the Communists out of Malaya. But by 1949 there was a model showing the first results of economic success right on our doorstep - and it was ignored.

 

[thenorthern]

Looking at the old manifestos whats strange is the railways get more of a mention now than the did in the days of British Rail which is rather odd given that British Rail was a state owned operation but current TOCs aren't.

Interestingly though in their 1992 manifesto Labour pledge full privatisation but they did pledge private investment in the railways and for British Rail to lease rolling stock from private companies. Seems to me like Labour were planning a soft privatisation in 1992. I wonder if Jeremy Corbyn agreed with Neil Kinnock on this?

 

[DarloRich]

The main point about the German recovery was that it was not centrally planned but market forces were allowed their head in the framework of a social market economy. In the UK Ministries were still allocating steel production to users in the early 1950s and deciding air routes and the planes that should use them. Anyone remember British South American Airways?

I never suggested that all the Anglo-American Loan or Marshall Aid went on nationalisation or welfare - but a lot of it did so. If the UK Government had set up an institute like the German Kreditanstalt für Wiederaufbau (Credit Institute for Reconstruction) then things might have been very different. This was set up using some of the Marshall Aid money to make loans available to public and private organisations for, essentially, infrastructure projects - the normal banking system being in a parlous state in 1949. The money had to be repaid and was then available for other projects. Instead the Marshall Aid money was treated the same way as general taxation and frittered away - some of it could have been used as a rotating credit for infrastructure, but it wasn't.

I do agree with you that in the aftermath of the war such changes of attitude and emphasis would have been very difficult - especially as the war had been fought to save our way of life. Almost certainly the Conservatives would have made similar foreign policy decisions as Attlee did had they been in power at the time. Some of the expenditures east of Suez were certainly justified - for example keeping the Communists out of Malaya. But by 1949 there was a model showing the first results of economic success right on our doorstep - and it was ignored.

I agree - however it is worth noting Germany came very close to abandoning their economic plan in the early days. They decided to ride out what were ultimately proved to be short term pain factors and reaped a long term reward. Other people may have folded. Erhard & Adenauer didnt.

 

[Railsigns]

Interestingly though in their 1992 manifesto Labour pledge full privatisation

This sentence seems to be missing a "didn't".

 

[yorksrob]

The main point about the German recovery was that it was not centrally planned but market forces were allowed their head in the framework of a social market economy. In the UK Ministries were still allocating steel production to users in the early 1950s and deciding air routes and the planes that should use them. Anyone remember British South American Airways?

I never suggested that all the Anglo-American Loan or Marshall Aid went on nationalisation or welfare - but a lot of it did so. If the UK Government had set up an institute like the German Kreditanstalt für Wiederaufbau (Credit Institute for Deconstruction) then things might have been very different. This was set up using some of the Marshall Aid money to make loans available to public and private organisations for, essentially, infrastructure projects - the normal banking system being in a parlous state in 1949. The money had to be repaid and was then available for other projects. Instead the Marshall Aid money was treated the same way as general taxation and frittered away - some of it could have been used as a rotating credit for infrastructure, but it wasn't.

I do agree with you that in the aftermath of the war such changes of attitude and emphasis would have been very difficult - especially as the war had been fought to save our way of life. Almost certainly the Conservatives would have made similar foreign policy decisions as Attlee did had they been in power at the time. Some of the expenditures east of Suez were certainly justified - for example keeping the Communists out of Malaya. But by 1949 there was a model showing the first results of economic success right on our doorstep - and it was ignored.

We also shouldn't forget Germany's bedrock of family owned medium sized companies that have stood the country in good stead ever since. Here we have rapacious 'gentlemanly' capitalism that has seen our equivalent companies flogged off to the likes of Unilever, with predictably disastrous results.

 

[Senex]

We also shouldn't forget Germany's bedrock of family owned medium sized companies that have stood the country in good stead ever since. Here we have rapacious 'gentlemanly' capitalism that has seen our equivalent companies flogged off to the likes of Unilever, with predictably disastrous results.

Not only the Mittelstand -- and just look at the lists of companies involved in any major railway contract (many of them local to the area where the contract is) for examples of their importance -- but also a banking structure and a financial sector ethos that really supports those companies.

 

[yorksrob]

Not only the Mittelstand -- and just look at the lists of companies involved in any major railway contract (many of them local to the area where the contract is) for examples of their importance -- but also a banking structure and a financial sector ethos that really supports those companies.

Yes indeed, and not just the railway sector. I've heard of companies in other sectors which have had to go abroad for finance, which begs the question as to why isn't the City funding British innovation.

 

[Grumpy]

Was Margaret Thatcher not in power when the ECML electrification project was authorised, along with the GEML, the line to Kings Lynn, the West Midlands Cross City electrification and the West Yorkshire electrification?

You could also throw in St.Pancras-Bedford, Carstairs-Waverley, Ayrshire, Weymouth, Hastings.
Also Chiltern route modernisation and the class 90's.
On the DMU side classes 150,155.156,158. With EMU's classes 317, 318,319,320,321,442,455,456 and 508.
The Channel Tunnel agreement and authorising the rail link have been mentioned

These were all given authorisation by her government and funded. No doubt the foaming trots will ignore all this and concentrate on blaming her for authorising the Pacers.

When you look at the evidence her government probably did far more positive things for the railways than any other post war government.

 

[yorksrob]

When you look at the evidence her government probably did far more positive things for the railways than any other post war government.

Whilst giving Mrs T her due, we shouldn't forget that those positive things happened primarily because British Rail was efficient and well run enough to make them happen.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Whilst giving Mrs T her due, we shouldn't forget that those positive things happened primarily because British Rail was efficient and well run enough to make them happen.

...and arguably that was thanks to the drastic but vital work of Macmillan, Marples and Beeching, which created British Rail as we came to know it from the ashes of the discredited British Transport Commision and transformed its pace and direction (also helped on its way by the deficit relief and subsidy regimes of the 1968 Act under Wilson and Castle).

 

[Willr2094]

Carrying on from the Margaret Thatcher Thread I was wondering who would you say has been the best post war prime minister for the railways and who has been the worst? From looking at history here are some major events that happened.

• Clement Atlee - Nationalisation of British Rail and separation of railway operation in Great Britain and Northern Ireland
• Winston Churchill - Modernisation plan, completion of Woodhead electrification.
• Anthony Eden - Nothing new really happened but AWS was introduced.
• Harold Macmillan - Beeching Axe, separation of British Rail from British Transport Commission, last tramway other than Blackpool closes.
• Alec Douglas-Home - Again not much happened but Beeching Axe continued.
• Harold Wilson (1st) - End of steam and some more line closures.
• Edward Heath - First APT train built, West Coast Maine Line electrification complete, introduction of TOPS.
• Harold Wilson (2nd) - Highly successful Intercity 125 is introduced.
• James Callaghan - Further introduction of Intercity 125 trains however rail passengers continue to fall.
• Margaret Thatcher - Sell off of non core railway assets such as hotels and BREL, sectorisation is introduced, Intercity APT-P introduced although it fails, passenger numbers fall to their lowest in over 100 years, Tyne and Wear Metro opens.
• John Major - Railways are privertised, East Coast Main Line is electrified, Channel Tunnel is opened, passenger numbers continue to increase, Manchester Metrolink opens as the first new tramway system.
• Tony Blair - West Coast Main Line upgrade completed, collapse of Railtrack and beginning of Network Rail.
• Gordon Brown - Collapse of East Coast, opening of HS1, announcement of Great Western Electrification.
• David Cameron - Announcement of HS2 and West Coast Main Line franchise fiasco.
• Theresa May - Not much has happened.

From this personally I think the worst one for rail transport was Margaret Thatcher but I am not sure who the best one was personally. What does everyone else think?

There are other things that could be added to the list:-

• Clemant Attlee Introduction of first mainline diesel prototypes, production of Big Four designs of steam locomotive starts to be wound down, by 1951 all large tender locomotives designed by the Big Four have ceased production.
  
• Winston Churchill Introduction of Standard Class steam locomotives - the last British steam locomotive design family introduced. Modernisation Plan launched. Standard Class 8 Duke of Gloucester built as the last new Pacific locomotive built for BR and Standard Class 9F introduced.
  
• Anthony Eden Delivery of last new locomotives built to pre nationalisation designs, Prototype Deltic trialled on London Midland Region introduction of Automatic Warning System on all regions bar the Western Region (who continue to use the bespoke GWR Automatic Train Control system), First Metro-Cammell DMUs (later Class 101) introduced.
  
• Harold Macmillan Trials of Prototype Deltic continue with it migrating to the Eastern Region as a possible replacement for A1,A3 and A4 Pacifics on prime express work, introduction of diesel classes 17, 20, 22, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 31, 33, 35, 37, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47 and 52. Series production Deltics (Class 55) introduced on East Coast Main Line. Authorisation of Beeching cuts, introduction of Classes 81, 82, 83, 84 and 85 AC electric locomotives. Further First Generation DMU stock introduced. Standard Class 9F 92220 Evening Star built at Swindon, bringing production of mainline steam traction to an end. Introduction of 4-CEP EMU stock. Last MK1 locomotive hauled coaches built. West Coast Mainline electrification authorised and end of King Class 4-6-0 steam locomotives on the Western Region in 1962.
  
• Alec Douglas-Home Last Class 52s delivered to the Western Region, and final Class 37s delivered. Production of Class 20 continues. XP64 experimental train introduced and first batches of MK2 coaches built. East Coast Main Line goes fully diesel operated in 1964 with the last departure of an A4 Pacific from Kings Cross that autumn and end of Stanier Pacifics on West Coast Main Line express work. Flying Scotsman preserved by Alan Pegler.
  
• Harold Wilson Western Region becomes the first region to go fully diesel operated, end of Eastern Region steam, Class 86 AC electric locomotives introduced, production of MK1 EMU stock continues, End of steam in Scotland with A4 Pacifics being withdrawn in 1966, Withdrawal of Class 28 (Metrovick Co-Bo) and 41, completion of production of Classes 20, 25 and 47. Introduction of entire batch of Class 50, end of steam on the Southern Region. Final genuine non stop run by steam on the East Coast Main Line between Kings Cross and Edinburgh using Flying Scotsman and final complete end of steam in the north west, after which all steam operations, excluding Flying Scotsman are banned. Isle of Wight electrified and first fleet of ex London Underground stock introduced there. Class 31s reengineered with English Electric engines replacing the Mirrlees units originally fitted. Rail Blue introduced with the British Rail brand replacing the British Railways name, which had been used since 1948.
  
• Edward Heath APT-E introduced, completion of MK1 EMU stock build, introduction of prototype HST, withdrawal of Classes 42 and 43 Warships, as well as Classes 16, 17, 22 and 29. Introduction of Class 87 and completion of West Coast Main Line electrification. Class 50s begin to displace Class 52s on Western Region express work. TOPS introduced and end of BR steam ban, allowing steam railtours to be reintroduced. Prototype HST breaks the rail speed record set by Mallard.
  
• Harold Wilson APT-E breaks the HST's speed record with a speed of 152.3mph. After APT-E's trials are completed, it's retired from its role in the APT project and handed over to the then new National Railway Museum at York, withdrawal of Class 35s and start made on withdrawing the Class 52s from the Western Region. Remainder of Class 50s transferred to the Western Region and last batches of MK2 stock delivered.
  
• James Callaghan Prototype HST withdrawn and set disbanded (with the first First Class coach becoming the latest and current Queen's Saloon in the Royal Train). Western Region abandons Automatic Train Control, becoming the last region to adopt AWS fully. Introduction of the series production Inter-City 125 fleet on the Western and Eastern Regions. Last Class 52s withdrawn, making diesel hydraulic traction extinct. Refurbishment of First Generation DMUs authorised, introduction of Class 313 EMUs. A collaboration with Leyland and BREL Derby sees the building of the LEV1 rail-bus unit.
  
• Margaret Thatcher HST sets continue to be delivered. Entire fleet of Class 55s withdrawn between 1979-1981 and majority scrapped by 1983. Withdrawal of last Southern Railway design 4-SUB EMUs. APT-P introduced though trials are unsuccessful and it's later abandoned. HST production ends. DMU replacement authorised with building of Class 141/142/143/144 Pacers and Class 150/155/156/158 Sprinters (though a prototype Class 151 is built but later withdrawn). Refurbishment of Class 50s. East Coast Mainline electrification authorised and work started, introduction of Class 90 and 91 electric locomotives. Introduction of Classes 58, 59 and 60 freight locomotives, closure of BREL works at Shildon and Swindon. Introduction of Classes 317, 319, 320, 321, 442, 455, 456 and 508. Retirement of Standard Stock trains on the Isle of Wight, replaced by 1938 Stock. Withdrawal of Class 40, 44, 45, 46. Closure of Woodhead Route and withdrawal of Class 76s, end of Classes 81, 82, 83 and 84. BR sectorised. Construction of Channel Tunnel started.
  
• John Major Withdrawal of last Class 85s, final batches of classes 158 and 159 Sprinters are introduced. Plan intiated to rebuild Class 155 (except the West Yorkshire PTE fleet) into Class 153 single car units. Remainder of Class 50s withdrawn by 1994. Class 165 and 166 DMUs introduced on Network South East. Introduction of Networker EMUs on Network South East. End of Southern Railway design EMUs in mainstream service with the final withdrawal of the ancient Southern Railway design class 487 units from the Waterloo and City Line of the London Underground, replaced by 1992 Tube Stock. Completion of East Coast Main Line electrification, InterCity 250 project started but abandoned. Channel Tunnel finally opened, Class 142, 143 and 144 Pacer units refitted with Cummins engines and Voith hydraulic transmission replacing their original Leyland bus engines and hydra-cyclic gearboxes, Class 141 retaining original Leyland engines. Privatisation starts with the passenger operations the first to go private. BR axes its ban on heritage diesel locomotives operating on the main line, which leads to long withdrawn classes regaining mainline running certification.
  
• Tony Blair Privatisation completed. Class 141 Pacers withdrawn. Massive orders for new stock authorised, which sees the introduction of classes 168, 170, 175, 180 and 185 DMUs and Electrostar and Desiro EMU families. Railtrack disbanded and replaced by Network Rail. Class 101 DMUs withdrawn, making two coach First Generation DMUs extinct. Introduction of Class 390s on Virgin West Coast and end of Class 86, 87 and 90 on WCML expresses, Cross Country services receive Class 220 and 221 Voyager units and most MK1 EMU stock withdrawn. End of Travelling Post Offices and the brief abolition of all mail trains (though some mail workings are reintroduced in 2005). HST fleet begins to be reengineered with new MTU engines replacing the aging Paxman Valentas. Mandatory introduction of OTMR and TPWS safety equipment on all rolling stock. Class 58s withdrawn. GNER rebids for its East Coast Main Line franchise and is successful in gaining it but loses the franchise to National Express in 2007 when Sea Containers files for bankruptcy protection in the US.
  
• Gordon Brown National Express East Coast discovers its bid was unaffordable and loses its franchise, with the franchise renationalised in late 2009. Much of HST power car reengineering programme completed. By the start of 2009, Valenta power units in the HST fleet are starting to become very rare. Final MK1 EMUs withdrawn from the Lymington Pier service. EWS bought out by DB and renamed DB Schenker. Many Class 60s withdrawn and stored. Eurostars cease using Waterloo as a terminus, all services moving to the refurbished St Pancras.
  
• David Cameron HST reengineering programme completed with Grand Central's fleet the last to lose their Paxman Valenta engines. East Coast reprivatized. Virgin West Coast loses its franchise to FirstGroup, though this award is later cancelled and Virgin is allowed to switch seamlessly onto the new franchise. IEP units ordered and Newton Aycliffe plant constructed to build them.
  
• Theresa May First of the new Hitachi built IEP units begins test runs on the East Coast Main Line. End of Class 121 single car First Generation DMUs, thus making First Generation DMUs completely extinct in mainstream service.

I would say that Margaret Thatcher's decade as Prime Minister was probably very good for the railways because of the vast amount of investment (new DMUs built, electrification projects authorised etc).

 

[Grumpy]

Whilst giving Mrs T her due, we shouldn't forget that those positive things happened primarily because British Rail was efficient and well run enough to make them happen.

Perhaps because the much lauded Bob Reid mk.1 was made Chairman by her government.