Best way to stop fare evasion

[JonathanH]

Full height ticket barriers for the more challenging spots, they are used in other metro networks.

Yes, and overlapping paddles.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Or do we need a social attitude shift where fare dodging is seen as unacceptable?

There's a fair chance that this would naturally follow if there were fewer fare dodgers.

If fare dodging is common then no-one wants to accept that they or their friends are criminal. If it's rare, then fewer people will be or know fare dodgers and it will be easier to condemn it. This in turn generates a virtuous circle where potential fare dodgers won't try it for fear of being found unacceptable in their community.

So if the railway goes for the suggestions we've made here, they can anticipate an attitude shift on top of the work they do.

 

[Kite159]

The problem with the attitude that trains are free and payment is optional, is those months in 2020 when guards were told not to do revenue due to 'Covid'.
So some people only purchased tickets if they were going to a station with barriers, and even then short faring could have been higher than usual as they knew the tickets wouldn't have been checked on the train

 

[SynthD]

Giving revenue staff the powers of a BTP officer to arrest people who force barriers would be a start. The higher wages might even pay for themselves in fines.

I expect very few of them want a confrontational task added to their job and would say no, not interested.

It seems like nearly every answer is more manpower, especially those who can enforce. Have BTP numbers changed much recently, as much as regular police headcount has?

 

[RailWonderer]

GA have employed a lot more staff post covid to check tickets and I frequently see them catch somebody out. It seems to be working very well despite many GA stations being barriered, likely due to people only buying a ticket to the next station rather than for their entire journey. On the other hand I have seen in the last two months IC operators on overcrowded services (EMR and LNER specifically) getting more lax, e.g. checking some passenger's tickets and not others.

 

[miklcct]

RPI checks at destination stations with any etickets from the previous station encoded not to open the barriers for further inspection,

I'm sorry this will inconvenience honest travellers more than catching fare dodgers, at least in areas without PAYG deployed.

For example, if the gateline at Brighton is set to not accept a ticket from Hove, I can imagine a pile of travellers accumulating at the gateline when a Coastway train arrives, as Hove - Brighton is a regular journey for local residents to get to the city.

Most passengers don't make single or triangular journeys, and the fares system that I referred to goes back to British Rail days - what we are likely to see is a move to single leg pricing which introduces different risks. With single leg pricing in urban areas at least one end of the journey needs barriers which at least ensures a passenger pays a maximum fare.

Due to the unreliability of the rail network, it is common to make single journeys where the return is made on an alternative mode of transport, for example, for a weekend out where the Saturday is a strike day, it's possible to go out by coach and return by rail. Also, triangular journeys are common for longer-distance leisure trips, or commuters who have the evening elsewhere than their workplace.

 

[Kite159]

For example, if the gateline at Brighton is set to not accept a ticket from Hove, I can imagine a pile of travellers accumulating at the gateline when a Coastway train arrives, as Hove - Brighton is a regular journey for local residents to get to the city.

Any passengers travelling from Hove to Brighton will most likely be using the far more frequent buses than trying to squeeze onto a 4 coach 377 which has stopped at every granny's front door from Havant and has been leaving passengers behind since Worthing.

 

[Peter Sarf]

My experiences of observing fare dodging are :-
1) Purley - watching youth jump over the barriers or a fence outside.
2) West Hampstead Thameslink seeing repeatedly people forcing the barriers.
3) People (especially the young) openly talking about not buying a ticket - it is actually looking to be a bit embarrassing if you have bought a ticket.

My feeling is that the easiest way to enforce ticketed travel is on-train ticket checks.
I also think that just looking at it as the cost of enforcement vs the extra fares revenue overlooks the fact that most undesirable people on a train do not have a ticket and therefore spoil the experience/security for fare payers. So it is about keeping standards up.
I also think that in society if we do not nip the minor transgressions in the bud then more serious crimes come next. I am not talking about punishing minor offences with a criminal record or a heavy fine BUT I am advocating making minor offences unworkable or unattractive.

 

[Recessio]

Installing barriers at busy stations would be a good start. Apparently the situation at Abbey Wood (new barriers thanks to Lizzy Line) has changed with youths now using adjacent unbarriered stations to dodge fares.

Not sure if full height barriers would make much difference (I still saw people forcing their way through and tailing people on the Brussels metro) but actually having a barrier that would have to be forced may be a deterrent compared to a simply open station you can just waltz in and out of.

 

[BJames]

GA have employed a lot more staff post covid to check tickets and I frequently see them catch somebody out. It seems to be working very well despite many GA stations being barriered, likely due to people only buying a ticket to the next station rather than for their entire journey. On the other hand I have seen in the last two months IC operators on overcrowded services (EMR and LNER specifically) getting more lax, e.g. checking some passenger's tickets and not others.

I've had all my EMR IC tickets checked over the last couple of months - I have broadly been travelling during the day though and my ticket hasn't historically always been checked at night.

My experiences of observing fare dodging are :-
1) Purley - watching youth jump over the barriers or a fence outside.
2) West Hampstead Thameslink seeing repeatedly people forcing the barriers.
3) People (especially the young) openly talking about not buying a ticket - it is actually looking to be a bit embarrassing if you have bought a ticket.

My feeling is that the easiest way to enforce ticketed travel is on-train ticket checks.
I also think that just looking at it as the cost of enforcement vs the extra fares revenue overlooks the fact that most undesirable people on a train do not have a ticket and therefore spoil the experience/security for fare payers. So it is about keeping standards up.
I also think that in society if we do not nip the minor transgressions in the bud then more serious crimes come next. I am not talking about punishing minor offences with a criminal record or a heavy fine BUT I am advocating making minor offences unworkable or unattractive.

Interesting about the bit in bold - I've had this feeling a couple of times when travelling with someone that insisted I didn't need to pay for the tram (I of course did, but no matter how much I said about the ticket inspectors issuing a fine if caught the person absolutely refused to pay, seeing it as a waste of money). This was early uni days but this isn't a new thing - easy enough to deal with if you are strong-willed enough to not be pressured into it but I can see how this could go if it was a bit group and you were the only one saying that everyone should pay etc

 

[miklcct]

2) West Hampstead Thameslink seeing repeatedly people forcing the barriers.

Is it at the main entrance or the back entrance?

 

[mike57]

Concentrate the efforts into on train checks.

Barriers have quite a few drawbacks, and I suspect do little to deter the determined fare evader i.e. criminal. Roving teams of ticket inspectors would probably also go a long way to addressing other areas of anti-social behaviour if they were properly trained and deployed.

Take a much stronger line with persistant offenders, like any criminal activity the only deterrant is where 'the crime is not worth the time'. If you can get away with fare evasion and only get caught maybe 1 in 10 journeys you may see it as worth while, if that reduced to say 1 in 3 and some sort of 3 strikes and out rule, where the penalties for a third offence in a given period, say 12 months are massively increased, maybe an automatic custodial sentence, then it will be seen as not worth the risk. The real persistant offenders will also try and threaten and intimidate when challenged by staff. I have seen it on a couple of occasions, make sure these people are removed from the railway system completely.

Make sure ticket buying is simple and easy, including facilities for cash purchases. People confronted with a slow moving queue at a ticket window will be tempted to chance it if they are faced with missing their train.

Finally on quiet rural lines just accept that people pay on the train, ticket machines dont always work, or people pay cash. So make sure staff are motivated to collect fares.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Is it at the main entrance or the back entrance?

I suppose it might be the side entrance, It was on a pathway along the North side of the MML.

Concentrate the efforts into on train checks.

Barriers have quite a few drawbacks, and I suspect do little to deter the determined fare evader i.e. criminal. Roving teams of ticket inspectors would probably also go a long way to addressing other areas of anti-social behaviour if they were properly trained and deployed.

Take a much stronger line with persistant offenders, like any criminal activity the only deterrant is where 'the crime is not worth the time'. If you can get away with fare evasion and only get caught maybe 1 in 10 journeys you may see it as worth while, if that reduced to say 1 in 3 and some sort of 3 strikes and out rule, where the penalties for a third offence in a given period, say 12 months are massively increased, maybe an automatic custodial sentence, then it will be seen as not worth the risk. The real persistant offenders will also try and threaten and intimidate when challenged by staff. I have seen it on a couple of occasions, make sure these people are removed from the railway system completely.

Make sure ticket buying is simple and easy, including facilities for cash purchases. People confronted with a slow moving queue at a ticket window will be tempted to chance it if they are faced with missing their train.

Finally on quiet rural lines just accept that people pay on the train, ticket machines dont always work, or people pay cash. So make sure staff are motivated to collect fares.

True. Persistent offenders should run out of excuses and second chances.

I have seen at East Croydon a few people get aggressive when they are caught. They definitely need removing from the Public's transport network !.

I sometimes get tailgated. I just stop at the barrier and watch staff notice - East Croydon is usually busy enough for that but useless at some other quieter stations with less staff.

 

[XAM2175]

Simple way to reduce majority of fare evasion (obviously not all of it as there will always be some):

Reduce the prices of tickets.

Realistically, as much as this is the number 1 request from enthusiasts anyway, I suspect that it wouldn't do much for fare evasion aside from clean up a bit of simple short-faring. My guess would be that the majority of people who baulk at the price of a ticket and decide against buying one subsequently don't take the train at all. Beyond that, somebody who initially evades the fare because they don't like the price and who then discovers that they can get away with it is hardly going to give up their 100% discount until it becomes evasion becomes too much bother to carry on with.

Indeed, the current ticket gates simply aren't fit for purpose. I'd like to see the barriers enhanced to prevent them being forced and better tackle tailgating. Not really sure how it could be done but they are increasingly becoming ineffective.

Against that, barriers are designed to give way when forced as a safety feature:
Rail Industry Standard for Automatic Ticket Gates at Stations

I'm curious about this, as (unless my memory is failing me) it seems to be a future that's developed uniquely in Britain.

Measures introduced to collect the additional revenue must not unduly inconvenience fare paying passengers

Applying this principle above, I'd put this straight in the bin:

RPI checks at destination stations with any etickets from the previous station encoded not to open the barriers for further inspection,

because valid tickets being deliberately rejected is intensely frustrating. Any valid - but potentially questionable - ticket should be passed by the gates with an indication that further inspection is desirable, as LU do with concessionary passes illuminating the orange lights on the gate display.

 

[Kite159]

because valid tickets being deliberately rejected is intensely frustrating. Any valid - but potentially questionable - ticket should be passed by the gates with an indication that further inspection is desirable, as LU do with concessionary passes illuminating the orange lights on the gate display

No different to ticket gates being set up to reject any railcard discounted tickets for a RPI block, so the RPIs can check to see if the passenger has an valid railcard.

 

[miklcct]

No different to ticket gates being set up to reject any railcard discounted tickets for a RPI block, so the RPIs can check to see if the passenger has an valid railcard.

It is different. the LU way is to pass the ticket but what you are describing is to reject the ticket.

 

[JonathanH]

because valid tickets being deliberately rejected is intensely frustrating. Any valid - but potentially questionable - ticket should be passed by the gates with an indication that further inspection is desirable, as LU do with concessionary passes illuminating the orange lights on the gate display.

The need for a secondary inspection, which could be useful in some cases should diminish once such secondary inspection can be done using the database of ticket purchases and touch in / touch out becoming possible with e-tickets and smart cards.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The need for a secondary inspection, which could be useful in some cases should diminish once such secondary inspection can be done using the database of ticket purchases and touch in / touch out becoming possible with e-tickets and smart cards.

Yes. i get the impression that nowadays, once caught, an offenders previous exploits are easily looked up.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

***Please note, this suggestion is not entirely serious***

Every guard to be issued with three guns: two paintball guns (one with yellow paint, one with red) and a high-calibre pistol.
First offence, you get a yellow splodge. Second offence gets a red splodge. Anyone caught without a ticket and with red and yellow paint splashes, gets er... "dispatched".

A similar scheme should also be introduced for drivers who don't indicate when leaving a roundabout. Gun towers to be built at every large roundabout for this purpose.

 

[XAM2175]

No different to ticket gates being set up to reject any railcard discounted tickets for a RPI block, so the RPIs can check to see if the passenger has an valid railcard.

It is different. the LU way is to pass the ticket but what you are describing is to reject the ticket.

Exactly as miklcct says: accept the ticket for the purposes of opening the gates, and let the RPIs intercept the holder after they've passed through. Rejecting the ticket causes a holdup right in the middle of the place where it's most inconvenient to everybody, and is especially silly if there aren't any RPIs present because legitimate passengers are still being held up and the mostly-powerless gate attendant can't do anything about any offenders they actually do detect.

The need for a secondary inspection, which could be useful in some cases should diminish once such secondary inspection can be done using the database of ticket purchases and touch in / touch out becoming possible with e-tickets and smart cards.

I'm afraid I don't understand.

 

[Thirteen]

There was an article in the Standard that TfL were planning to ban chronic fare evaders from the Tube but I'm not sure how that could be enforced.
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[Kite159]

There was an article in the Standard that TfL were planning to ban chronic fare evaders from the Tube but I'm not sure how that could be enforced.
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Agreed, but it's like supermarkets banning known shoplifters, rather hard to enforce.

 

[Peter Sarf]

***Please note, this suggestion is not entirely serious***

Every guard to be issued with three guns: two paintball guns (one with yellow paint, one with red) and a high-calibre pistol.
First offence, you get a yellow splodge. Second offence gets a red splodge. Anyone caught without a ticket and with red and yellow paint splashes, gets er... "dispatched".

A similar scheme should also be introduced for drivers who don't indicate when leaving a roundabout. Gun towers to be built at every large roundabout for this purpose.

I swear I believe many cars (especially expensive ones) do not have indicators fitted. And it is not just at roundabouts. Although the main problem on roundabouts is people indicating they are exiting way before their planned exit.

I feel there should be a taser stage () before your outright and thorough final solution - the final journey . Actually an earlier stage would be public humiliation on social media . No wait that would just give them street cred.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I swear I believe many cars (especially expensive ones) do not have indicators fitted. And it is not just at roundabouts. Although the main problem on roundabouts is people indicating they are exiting way before their planned exit.

I feel there should be a taser stage () before your outright and thorough final solution - the final journey . Actually an earlier stage would be public humiliation on social media . No wait that would just give them street cred.

A taser stage isn't a bad idea, after all we aren't monsters!

 

[Cowley]

We’ve checked the rules and apparently tasers and paintball guns are not allowed so we’d probably better leave them there…

Thanks

 

[crablab]

No different to ticket gates being set up to reject any railcard discounted tickets for a RPI block, so the RPIs can check to see if the passenger has an valid railcard.

Which as a regular GWR passenger with a valid railcard, is really annoying.

 

[Pompey00]

Make it free

Next joke

The sort of people who force their way through barriers are the sort whom know the barrier staff are powerless to do anything, especially if they are contractors.

Some don't even have the ability to sell tickets so if someone comes up saying "haven't got a ticket", all they can do is direct them towards a TVM (or ticket office if it's open), where that passenger will most likely bugger off as soon as they are through.



Seems to gone downhill since Covid on the Scottish electrics, although I guess the rise of some anti social behaviour might make some ticket examiners think it isn't worth bothering asking that group (both young & older) if they have got tickets as they will only get abuse. The 18 or so months where it was effectively free travel unless travelling to a barriered station probably will take years to go back the way it was. Doesn't help the Scottish legal system makes it very hard to charge any sort of penalty to those who blatantly walk past an open ticket office & TVM to board a train to buy on board if they get challenged.

I work Gateline and it’s always the same thing telling people they shouldn’t board the train without a ticket as that will lead to you getting fined if caught. Thing is we are powerless like we can try stop them coming into the station but if they are leaving without a ticket we can’t entrap them only send them to ticket office (tvm last resort if closed). You get the odd few who pay and the others walk away and you can only say ticket office or tvm is there and that’s when you get abuse. But we get more help from revenue protection and btp assisting. Your see the people use the smaller station with no barriers and be like my train arrived as I got there so had to jump on it. But like said revenue always travelling to Barrier and non barrier stations And on the train inspecting.

 

[Mogz]

Sometimes the efforts people go to in order to dodge fares astonish me.

One method is to go from one small unbarriered station on the edge of a larger conurbation to another unbarriered station on the edge of the destination area.

One example I’ve seen time after time is the journey from Newbury to Reading, which are both manned stations with barriers.

Dodgers will go from Newbury Racecourse to Reading West in order to do this journey. You see them looking furtive and going into the toilets if a guard appears.

Occasionally they get caught out if there’s a revenue team doing a sting at Reading West, but GWR must lose a fair bit on this route.

 

[Pompey00]

Sometimes the efforts people go to in order to dodge fares astonish me.

One method is to go from one small unbarriered station on the edge of a larger conurbation to another unbarriered station on the edge of the destination area.

One example I’ve seen time after time is the journey from Newbury to Reading, which are both manned stations with barriers.

Dodgers will go from Newbury Racecourse to Reading West in order to do this journey. You see them looking furtive and going into the toilets if a guard appears.

Occasionally they get caught out if there’s a revenue team doing a sting at Reading West, but GWR must lose a fair bit on this route.

The thing is they always try their luck and hope not to get caught but revenue for swr are constantly on the prowl. So many people have been
Fined and sent to court but still fare evade. Will never learn their lesson .

 

[185143]

Any passengers travelling from Hove to Brighton will most likely be using the far more frequent buses than trying to squeeze onto a 4 coach 377 which has stopped at every granny's front door from Havant and has been leaving passengers behind since Worthing.

Must be enough genuine passengers to have warranted reintroducing the shuttle service though.