Bi-mode class 377s

[ABB125]

I recall reading in last month's Today's Railways that Southern are 'seriously considering' converting their 3 car class 377s to bi-mode operation to improve service on the Marshlink line. Apparently it would be easier than extending Javelin services to Hastings because of the cross-franchise beaurocracy, but rather costly. Is it possible to do this?

 

[southern442]

Don't Southern have other things to 'seriously consider' first?

I think it could be done, as long as there is sufficient space on the underside of the units.

 

[Domh245]

It's more likely that they'd be IPEMUs rather than bi-modes (ie they'll have batteries fitted). I think we discussed it recently in the infrastructure sub-forum.

 

[southern442]

It's more likely that they'd be IPEMUs rather than bi-modes (ie they'll have batteries fitted). I think we discussed it recently in the infrastructure sub-forum.

That would seem a better bet, especially as it's been tried and tested with similar units before.

 

[ABB125]

It's an interesting idea nevertheless.

 

[JamesRowden]

It's more likely that they'd be IPEMUs rather than bi-modes (ie they'll have batteries fitted). I think we discussed it recently in the infrastructure sub-forum.

`Bi-mode' simply means two modes. Grid/Battery->Motor is just as much bi-mode as Grid/Engine->Motor.

 

[D365]

It would also seem that there's barely enough 395s to go around as it is.
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`Bi-mode' simply means two modes. Grid/Battery->Motor is just as much bi-mode as Grid/Engine->Motor.

Within the UK rail industry the two terms are used to distinguish different types of rolling stock (note the difference between a DEMU and an EDMU).

 

[hwl]

Given the previous rolling stock plan was to use the remaining 377/3 (that aren't already) to form 10car 377s (3+3+4) for additional 10 car metro services that sounds like the planned increase in 10 car metro services isn't happening which isn't good...

4 car 377s might make more sense as there would be more battery space overall as this was an issue wiht the 379 IPEMU trial???

 

[JamesRowden]

I recall reading in last month's Today's Railways that Southern are 'seriously considering' converting their 3 car class 377s to bi-mode operation to improve service on the Marshlink line. Apparently it would be easier than extending Javelin services to Hastings because of the cross-franchise beaurocracy, but rather costly. Is it possible to do this?

It should be possible to use IPEMUs for the Brighton/Rye-Ashford services if Southern are allowed to recharge the trains in the sidings off the Tonbridge line at Ashford, or if Southern extend the services to run beyond Ashford.

The infrequent Hastings-Ashford stoppers can recharge in Platform 1 at Hastings without getting in the way. An Eastbourne-Ashford stopper could run if the Marshlink speed upgrades are sufficient to allow a 2tph service to operate between Ore and Rye (rather than the present 1tph plus one train in either direction)
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Within the UK rail industry the two terms are used to distinguish different types of rolling stock (note the difference between a DEMU and an EDMU).

The term `Electro-diesel' is used in the industry to mean that which you think `Bi-mode' means. Bi-mode means an electric train which also contains a source of power to allow it to be powered on non electrified lines. Battery-trains and electrodiesels are both examples of bi-modes. Both could work on Brighton-Ashford services.

 

[Kentish Paul]

It should be possible to use IPEMUs for the Brighton/Rye-Ashford services if Southern are allowed to recharge the trains in the sidings off the Tonbridge line at Ashford, or if Southern extend the services to run beyond Ashford.

With the current timetable no units stayover at Ashford. There is a short turnaround before the unit returns to Brighton. How would going to the sidings for a recharge work? At least 1 extra unit if not 2.

In the thumper days a unit used to go to Chart Leacon depot for a refuel around midday.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Im not famillior with the route, would they need to go the entire way on battery power or does the juice return part way along?

If the former, I would have thought a self contained flrleat of D Trains would work here?

 

[RobShipway]

Im not famillior with the route, would they need to go the entire way on battery power or does the juice return part way along?

If the former, I would have thought a self contained flrleat of D Trains would work here?

The juice stops just before Ore station and I think is picked up again on the outskirts of Ashford.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The juice stops just before Ore station and I think is picked up again on the outskirts of Ashford.

Brighton to Ore is fully electrified and the juice extends to just east of Ore where an electric unit can enter/exit the turnback siding.

I can't remember where the juice starts on the approach to Ashford

 

[Prestige15]

That would seem a better bet, especially as it's been tried and tested with similar units before.

From what i've read, Those batteries are expensive but it does make good sense having a IPEMU, Worth paying for i guess.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Brighton to Ore is fully electrified and the juice extends to just east of Ore where an electric unit can enter/exit the turnback siding.

I can't remember where the juice starts on the approach to Ashford

So assuning the power change has to be done in the station thats a good proportion of the run on the batteries. If they could change over on the move then the full potential of the 3rd rail could be used for current and charging

 

[physics34]

Could you have a conductor rail just at stations (ie Where a train.pauses for a while) just for recharging?

 

[Domh245]

Could you have a conductor rail just at stations (ie Where a train.pauses for a while) just for recharging?

I think this was mentioned the last time we discussed this, and Rye was suggested as a suitable charging point.

 

[The Ham]

Could you have a conductor rail just at stations (ie Where a train.pauses for a while) just for recharging?

The problem with having a short length of conductor rail is that the power supply feed is the expensive bit, and so you may as well extend it for as long as you are able to for not a lot of extra cost.

 

[HSTEd]

If you fit a substation for third rail at an intermediate station you might as well extend it for several hundred meters at least in each direction - especially if you have a clever installation on the train that can pull whatever current is available from the conductor rail with the remainder coming from the battery.

That way you could extend the conductor rail for a couple of miles at least in each direction and slow the battery discharge rate on the sections where there is not enough power left after resistive losses for train operation.
A train at cruise doesn't use much after all.

 

[Kentish Paul]

I think this was mentioned the last time we discussed this, and Rye was suggested as a suitable charging point.

As the train only stops for a few minutes not a lot of charging will get done.

 

[HSTEd]

I prefer BEMU to IPEMU - IPEMU just sounds like the product of a focus group that thinks more letters sounds better.

 

[Domh245]

As the train only stops for a few minutes not a lot of charging will get done.

Granted, but I wouldn't be massively surprised if there was to be a timetable recast if this IPEMU idea was to be pursued. At the least I would expect that they would want a longer turnaround at Ashford to charge the train up, as well as a longer dwell time at an intermediate charging station, or perhaps even a complete revamp where they look at ways of reducing the number of units that need conversion and cutting the service back to just Ashford-Hastings.

Alternatively, perhaps a short run of OLE could be used for charging purposes instead of third rail, as you'd be able to charge it quicker. But then you start to run into the need to fit pantographs to the stock as well

 

[JamesRowden]

With the current timetable no units stayover at Ashford. There is a short turnaround before the unit returns to Brighton. How would going to the sidings for a recharge work? At least 1 extra unit if not 2.

In the thumper days a unit used to go to Chart Leacon depot for a refuel around midday.

I am suggesting using an extra unit to allow the service an extra hour to charge at Ashford (which could include running in service to Tonbridge/Maidstone/Margate/Dover). I think it would be neccesary since the trains would otherwise require excessively large batteries or quick charging which would substantially reduce the operating life and efficiency of the batteries. No extra staff would be required if the trains spent an hour charging at Ashford since the staff could switch from a discharged train to a charged train. I think that just an extra 30 minutes of charging at Ashford would be sufficient if an every 30 minutes service were to operate.
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Alternatively, perhaps a short run of OLE could be used for charging purposes instead of third rail, as you'd be able to charge it quicker. But then you start to run into the need to fit pantographs to the stock as well

It is the batteries which will limit the recharge rate rather than the electification.