Bicester stations - break of journey

[Bungle]

Afternoon all. I'm planning a trip from Sutton Coldfield to London in a couple of weeks, meeting up with a friend who lives in Bicester who will be joining me on the way down at Bicester North. I was intending to use a Super Off Peak Return on Chiltern and walk from New St to Moor St.

I might stop overnight at his in Bicester on the way back as it may be too late to get the last train back to Birmingham (we're going to the darts at Ally Pally.) He lives quite a bit closer to Bicester Village than Bicester North, and tends to catch one of the Oxford services when he travels to London from home.

The question is, with a Birmingham to London return (or Sutton Coldfield to London via High Wycombe ticket in my case), can I take an Oxford train on the return leg and break my journey overnight at Bicester Village, resuming the next morning from Bicester North? Or is Village considered "off route" on that ticket, and the break of journey would only be valid on a Birmingham (or Banbury terminator late on) train, meaning we had to travel via Bicester North?

I'm presuming the latter, which is unfortunate as the tickets required to make the return trip via Village would affect the price considerably, but thought I might as well throw the question out to people more knowledgeable than me! Thanks for any advice.

 

[30907]

Pending expert advice, which might be more positive:

I can't get a fare on NRE that way (but I haven't gone beyond the basic "via" query).
You could buy a single from Haddenham, assuming that's the last stop on the Oxford train you catch, which would definitely cover you.

 

[Watershed]

Afternoon all. I'm planning a trip from Sutton Coldfield to London in a couple of weeks, meeting up with a friend who lives in Bicester who will be joining me on the way down at Bicester North. I was intending to use a Super Off Peak Return on Chiltern and walk from New St to Moor St.

I might stop overnight at his in Bicester on the way back as it may be too late to get the last train back to Birmingham (we're going to the darts at Ally Pally.) He lives quite a bit closer to Bicester Village than Bicester North, and tends to catch one of the Oxford services when he travels to London from home.

The question is, with a Birmingham to London return (or Sutton Coldfield to London via High Wycombe ticket in my case), can I take an Oxford train on the return leg and break my journey overnight at Bicester Village, resuming the next morning from Bicester North? Or is Village considered "off route" on that ticket, and the break of journey would only be valid on a Birmingham (or Banbury terminator late on) train, meaning we had to travel via Bicester North?

I'm presuming the latter, which is unfortunate as the tickets required to make the return trip via Village would affect the price considerably, but thought I might as well throw the question out to people more knowledgeable than me! Thanks for any advice.

Unfortunately there are very few tickets which are valid between London and both Bicester stations - you generally only have validity to one or the other, but not both. That includes a ticket from Sutton Coldfield to London, which is only valid at/via Bicester North, not Bicester Village. This does seem rather 'mean' (particularly considering how circuitous some permitted routes can be), but that's how it is.

If you wanted to go to Bicester Village then your best options would either be to buy a single from the last station where the train stops before Bicester Village (Haddenham & Thame Parkway would be cheapest, but not all Oxford trains stop there), or to buy an Advance to Bicester Village (these can sometimes be very cheap).

 

[Bungle]

Thought as much, that was my interpretation too.

Either a High Wycombe or a Haddenham & Thame Parkway to Bicester Village (depending on which train we end up on) will do the job. An Advance won't do as we don't know which one we'll be on, but £8.50 single from High Wycombe is fine. Never thought of that, thanks for the tip.

 

[hkstudent]

Thought as much, that was my interpretation too.

Either a High Wycombe or a Haddenham & Thame Parkway to Bicester Village (depending on which train we end up on) will do the job. An Advance won't do as we don't know which one we'll be on, but £8.50 single from High Wycombe is fine. Never thought of that, thanks for the tip.

Buy the £4 single to Haddenham & Thame Parkway would be enough, as Bicester Village trains will call there.

 

[Watershed]

Buy the £4 single to Haddenham & Thame Parkway would be enough, as Bicester Village trains will call there.

Not all Bicester Village trains do. On weekday nights, only around half do, for instance:



That being said, on Saturday and Sunday nights, all do (as Oxford services are generally slower).

 

[Bungle]

Buy the £4 single to Haddenham & Thame Parkway would be enough, as Bicester Village trains will call there.

The 0001 Oxford on the night in question (which would be our likely option if we miss the 2307 and 2311) doesn’t, among others.

I’ll check before departure and buy the cheapest appropriate walk-up.

Sorry to drag this back to the top…. Just seen that Chiltern have a much-reduced timetable even on the non-strike days and are not running north of Banbury on the day in question.

Can I use a Birmingham Stations (or Sutton Coldfield in my case) to London, route “via High Wycombe” ticket on XC from New St to Banbury and change there, rather than travelling on Chiltern via Moor St?

 

[Watershed]

Sorry to drag this back to the top…. Just seen that Chiltern have a much-reduced timetable even on the non-strike days and are not running north of Banbury on the day in question.

Can I use a Birmingham Stations (or Sutton Coldfield in my case) to London, route “via High Wycombe” ticket on XC from New St to Banbury and change there, rather than travelling on Chiltern via Moor St?

Yes, that's fine. The restriction is via High Wycombe, not "Chiltern only". Some fares from nearer to London (e.g. Leamington Spa) are actually routed via Banbury, which would allow you to go via Reading instead.

Chiltern's strike-esque timetable will probably mean that all Oxford trains stop at Haddenham, but it's entirely possible that the last train will be at 4 or 5pm, so you may need to rethink your plans...

 

[Bungle]

Yes, that's fine. The restriction is via High Wycombe, not "Chiltern only". Some fares from nearer to London (e.g. Leamington Spa) are actually routed via Banbury, which would allow you to go via Reading instead.

Chiltern's strike-esque timetable will probably mean that all Oxford trains stop at Haddenham, but it's entirely possible that the last train will be at 4 or 5pm, so you may need to rethink your plans...

Yeah we already have, thanks. Coach + a lift it will have to be. Last trains are a little later than that, around 8pm-ish, but still far too early.

 

[kieron]

Unfortunately there are very few tickets which are valid between London and both Bicester stations - you generally only have validity to one or the other, but not both.

Are you sure about this? My understanding is:

With a Sutton Coldfield-London, you can travel between Birmingham and London on map GC. One section on that map goes between Banbury Group and Princes Risborough.

When you traverse this map section, it lets you travel between Kings Sutton and Princes Risborough without passing through a station in a routeing point, or a station which appears on that map. Someone who catches a train from (or via) Kings Sutton to Bicester North, walks to Bicester Village, and catches a train from there to (or via) Princes Risborough does exactly that.

The walking link between Bicester North and Bicester Village appears on a table on nre.co.uk, so it's acknowledged by the rail industry. It doesn't appear in the data web sites use, so you wouldn't be able to get an itinerary that way for a through ticket.

 

[Watershed]

Are you sure about this? My understanding is:

With a Sutton Coldfield-London, you can travel between Birmingham and London on map GC. One section on that map goes between Banbury Group and Princes Risborough.

When you traverse this map section, it lets you travel between Kings Sutton and Princes Risborough without passing through a station in a routeing point, or a station which appears on that map. Someone who catches a train from (or via) Kings Sutton to Bicester North, walks to Bicester Village, and catches a train from there to (or via) Princes Risborough does exactly that.

The walking link between Bicester North and Bicester Village appears on a table on nre.co.uk, so it's acknowledged by the rail industry. It doesn't appear in the data web sites use, so you wouldn't be able to get an itinerary that way for a through ticket.

I guess that's one argument you could make. I'm not sure how that would go down with the Bicester Village gateline staff, though, when your ticket is inevitably rejected.

 

[kieron]

I would hope that Chiltern staff would allow people to make use of the rights the RDG tells us we have. As there's a chance that they may not be aware of these rights, I would be in a position to show that page to them if I needed to.

I'd be in a position to pay an additional fare if forced to, and to complain to Chiltern about my experience later on. I certainly wouldn't pay anything extra without being asked to, though.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Chiltern would no doubt argue that you are off-route between Bicester Village and Haddenham & Thame Parkway when using such a ticket. That's also likely to be one of the reasons for not including the walk between the two Bicester stations in the Fixed Links file. (Another possibility being that it's an oversight, and nobody thought to add it when through running commenced back in 2015.)

As an aside, Map GC also appears to show the Wycombe Railway route between Princes Risborough and Oxford, despite passenger services having been withdrawn in 1963!

 

[Watershed]

As an aside, Map GC also appears to show the Wycombe Railway route between Princes Risborough and Oxford, despite passenger services having been withdrawn in 1963!

Nope - it's just showing the link to Oxford via Bicester Village. There aren't any intermediate Routeing Points between Princes Risborough and Oxford.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Nope - it's just showing the link to Oxford via Bicester Village. There aren't any intermediate Routeing Points between Princes Risborough and Oxford.

It's showing two routes between Princes Risborough and Oxford: A direct one, which is the one I'm assuming to be the Wycombe Railway route via Thame, then a more Northerly one with Oxford Parkway marked as an interchange.

 

[Bungle]

All genuinely very interesting this, ladies and gents, and appreciated; however, while I’m proficient enough with the basic principles of routes and split tickets etc, I’m not confident enough and don’t have the motivation or inclination to get involved in a debate about the finer points and interpretations of the routeing guide with an RPI or gateline staff late at night - it’s just not worth the energy. If I was still doing it, I’d be buying the cheapest single from the last “common” station on the route before diverging off to Bicester Village and having done with it.

It’s a moot point now anyway - I’m meeting my friend in London, got a £14 advance from Sutton Coldfield to Euston via Lichfield that’s going to be quicker and was hard to say no to! We’ll be getting home on the Oxford Tube coach.

 

[Benjwri]

Someone who catches a train from (or via) Kings Sutton to Bicester North, walks to Bicester Village, and catches a train from there to (or via) Princes Risborough does exactly that.

You cannot go off the map though. You are going off the map by walking between Bicester North and Village, and ending up on the leg between Oxford Parkway and Princes Risborough.

You can start your journey from any intermediate station, but it has to have been valid for you to be at that station if you made your whole journey by train. There is no way to follow a mapped route and end up at Bicester village without breaking the no double back rule.

The walking link between Bicester North and Bicester Village appears on a table on nre.co.uk,

The word useful implies it isn’t binding, but even then the page mentions interchange stations, and usually when something is allowed only for interchange you usually cannot break your journey there.

I would assume this issue will become more pronounced when East West Rail is completed, and something may be done at that point.

 

[JB_B]

You cannot go off the map though. You are going off the map by walking between Bicester North and Village, and ending up on the leg between Oxford Parkway and Princes Risborough.

I don't think that's quite right. Each link on a map represents all possible routes between the end points which do not pass through any other RP/RPG member (other than those linked.) That means that distinct map links will often represent routes which partially overlap in the real world. If the rail industry added Village to North as a fixed link (and it could easily be an oversight that it's not there) then journey planners would immediately start validating the route - no change to the maps would be necessary.

 

[Benjwri]

I don't think that's quite right. Each link on a map represents all possible routes between the end points which do not pass through any other RP/RPG member (other than those linked.) That means that distinct map links will often represent routes which partially overlap in the real world. If the rail industry added Village to North as a fixed link (and it could easily be an oversight that it's not there) then journey planners would immediately start validating the route - no change to the maps would be necessary.

You’re correct that if it were added as a fixed link it would be valid, but as it is now it isn’t, and therefore to travel it would require a double back, and isn’t valid.

 

[kieron]

Chiltern would no doubt argue that you are off-route between Bicester Village and Haddenham & Thame Parkway when using such a ticket.

Why do you say "no doubt"? Do you have some insight into Chiltern's customer service department?

To me, the good thing about a customer service department is that their communications are recorded. If they reject a complaint based on a demonstrably false statement (such as that a transfer between a train at Bicester Village and one at Bicester North is not valid as part of a rail journey), you should be able to focus on that as you escalate it.

That's also likely to be one of the reasons for not including the walk between the two Bicester stations in the Fixed Links file.

Sorry, what is a reason?

As an aside, Map GC also appears to show the Wycombe Railway route between Princes Risborough and Oxford, despite passenger services having been withdrawn in 1963!

A line on a routeing map only permits you to use trains which go that way. If no trains go between Oxford and Princes Risborough without passing through Oxford Parkway, the line on the map has no effect.

You\u2019re correct that if it were added as a fixed link it would be valid, but as it is now it isn\u2019t, and therefore to travel it would require a double back, and isn\u2019t valid.

Retail systems do not determine ticket validity. Rules do.

There used to be a few rules against using a ticket to Bicester Town (as was) via Bicester North and vice versa, but I don't know of any which restricted through journeys.

 

[Watershed]

demonstrably false statement (such as that a transfer between a train at Bicester Village and one at Bicester North is not valid as part of a rail journey)

I am all for giving passengers the benefit of the doubt but I am struggling to see how this statement is demonstrably false, let alone false at all.

It's showing two routes between Princes Risborough and Oxford: A direct one, which is the one I'm assuming to be the Wycombe Railway route via Thame, then a more Northerly one with Oxford Parkway marked as an interchange.

I don't think that the 'direct' one is intended to represent the Wycombe Railway. It's just that Oxford Parkway was added in as an intermediate location on the map at some point. It's rather superfluous having both sets of links, as Oxford Parkway is a mandatory timing point - and so even trains which don't call there (this generally only applies to Birmingham to London services which are diverted via Oxford) will be detected as passing it. But it's likely no more than a minor oversight.

 

[Benjwri]

Retail systems do not determine ticket validity. Rules do.

There used to be a few rules against using a ticket to Bicester Town (as was) via Bicester North and vice versa, but I don't know of any which restricted through journeys.

Yes rules control the validity, and this breakers the rule. There is no rule that states you can do this, and therefore it is covered by the rule that it is off route. The rules don’t care about arguments about distance, and as far as the rules see it you might as well have got a bus to Oxford Parkway, as your ticket would be equally invalid.

Yes the route from Oxford Parkway to Princes Risborough is in the map, but you may not go off a map and back on it, but interchanging in this way you are doing just that.