Bidston line electrification

[merlodlliw]

This article appeared in the local dailies in North Wales yesterday, another push for the Bidston line to improve,plus rename of Hawarden Bridge

Daily Post east edition 27th Sept written by Tom Bodden
Business leaders launched a new campaign yesterday to win £200m Government investment to electrify the Wrexham to Bidston rail link.

Bosses on the Deeside Industrial Park also want an upgrading of the Hawarden Bridge stop on the line, to be renamed as the ‘Deeside Enterprise Zone’ station.

Executives warned that the lack of basic rail infrastructure deters new businesses from locating to the area, despite Deeside being one of the most successful zones.

Askar Sheibani, chief executive of telecoms company Comtek, said the rail service – which unites enterprise hubs in north east Wales and Merseyside – has been branded too infrequent and slow, often due to breakdowns on the line.

“The poor service has diminished aspirations to commute to the areas the train line serves and has become an obstacle for businesses operating in the region,” he said.

Now the Deeside Industrial Park business forum, chaired by Mr Sheibani, is to spearhead a campaign, with cross-party support, to raise the issue up the political agenda at Westminster ahead of the 2019 rail spending plans.

In the meantime, he argued, extra services should be introduced with trains should running at least every half an hour, compared with the current five a day .

Lord Barry Jones, president of the Deeside Industrial Park, said: “With more businesses and more jobs comes a more prosperous community, but this growth will be stunted if transport links continue to fall below par.”

Welsh secretary David Jones held a cross-border summit of stakeholders in August to discuss the proposal for a business case for the investment. He said: “Electrification of the Wrexham to Bidston line could well be a critical investment to help stimulate further investment at the enterprise zones on both sides of the border. I’m delighted that the business case to support this proposal is now well underway.”

Five trains a day refers to Hawarden Bridge station,link http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business...s-leaders-demand-rail-electrification-6103245

 

[Gareth Marston]

This article appeared in the local dailies in North Wales yesterday, another push for the Bidston line to improve,plus rename of Hawarden Bridge



Five trains a day refers to Hawarden Bridge station,link http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business...s-leaders-demand-rail-electrification-6103245

There's clear concern that the parks competitive position will decline due to poor public transport links to it, a clear sign that business (even manufacturing) is being weaned off road access only.

 

[HSTEd]

As I understand it cases for electrification often involve through running of Merseyrail trains.
Are there sufficient paths available to do that without gutting the West Kirkby service?

EDIT:

Apparently only 14 trains per hour pass through the Wirral Line platform at Liverpool Central, so perhaps with the caveat of resignalling it should be feasible to add 4tph more for the Bidston line.

 

[Eagle]

Are you suggesting 4tph Liverpool to Wrexham?

2tph should be more than sufficient.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Are you suggesting 4tph Liverpool to Wrexham?
2tph should be more than sufficient.

The Wirral suburbs will want 4tph like the others, say to Heswall.
2tph from there would be adequate.
The papers talk about a circular routeing: Liverpool-Shotton-Wrexham-Chester-Liverpool, which implies wiring Wrexham-Chester too.
Makes more sense than just electrifying the ex-MS&L route.
There will be more demand via Chester, and it can piggyback on the existing Chester Merseyrail service.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Wirral suburbs will want 4tph like the others, say to Heswall. 2tph from there would be adequate.

Has there ever been any historical discussions concerning the extension of the 3rd rail system to Heswall, which would have left it in a similar position to that at both Ormskirk and at Kirkby ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Has there ever been any historical discussions concerning the extension of the 3rd rail system to Heswall, which would have left it in a similar position to that at both Ormskirk and at Kirkby ?

Irrespective of the Wrexham debate, Merseyrail has talked in the past about extending from Bidston either to Upton, or to a new station south of there at Woodchurch.
The urban area and Merseytravel area runs out to Heswall though.
Neston is in Cheshire West but is like Hooton in terms of distance from Birkenhead, and has some well-heeled commuters.
The hinterland changes completely south of there.
The debate about where to terminate electric working was complicated by the fact that the rump service south to Wrexham from any of these stations would be very expensive to operate with DMUs, in terms of stock, crews and signalling for reversals.
They would also be as unattractive to change at as Bidston is today, as none of them is a destination in its own right.

 

[185]

Merseytravel, the PTE should take the lead, and initially electrify 4km - Bidston to Woodchurch using their own funding. Woodchurch is ideal for a park and ride on the M53, bags of land available for parking and a station over Woodchurch Road.

Once built, that would be a catalyst to extend third rail southwards and the Welsh authorities could easier make the case for funding.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Once built, that would be a catalyst to extend third rail southwards and the Welsh authorities could easier make the case for funding.

Distance-wise, a third-rail extension to the Wrexham environs is a far different prospect to that faced when the decision was made to extend the third-rail southwards to Chester.

Has anyone got the actual costs that were incurred in the Chester extension and the projected costings for the Bidston to Wrexham extension.

 

[HSTEd]

Merseyrail suggested a figure of £207m for third rail extension from Bidston to Wrexham.

Apparently 25kV may come out cheaper which would mean there would be a switchover at Bidston using the new Merseyrail stock which would certainly be dual voltage capable anyway.

 

[Bevan Price]

Has there ever been any historical discussions concerning the extension of the 3rd rail system to Heswall, which would have left it in a similar position to that at both Ormskirk and at Kirkby ?

A problem with Heswall station is that it is in a relatively lightly populated area, over one mile from the town centre. Also, Helsby is a lot smaller than either Ormskirk or Kirkby. Neston station is close to the town centre, but outside the Merseyside area, and in the current fininacial situation, i don't see Nerseytravel spending money that mainly benefits people living elsewhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As I understand it cases for electrification often involve through running of Merseyrail trains.
Are there sufficient paths available to do that without gutting the West Kirkby service?

EDIT:

Apparently only 14 trains per hour pass through the Wirral Line platform at Liverpool Central, so perhaps with the caveat of resignalling it should be feasible to add 4tph more for the Bidston line.

They managed to increase the number of trains round the Liverpool loop from 12 to 14 per hour, when the Chester line service was increased. Adding at least another 2 - 4 per hour ought to be feasible. I think a bigger problem might be finding paths for extra trains through the junctions on either side of Bidston station. Could it need a slight reduction in the New Brighton and / or West Kirby line services to make room for a Wrexham - Bidston - Liverpool Loop service ?

 

[eps200]

A problem with Heswall station is that it is in a relatively lightly populated area, over one mile from the town centre. Also, Helsby is a lot smaller than either Ormskirk or Kirkby. Neston station is close to the town centre, but outside the Merseyside area, and in the current fininacial situation, i don't see Nerseytravel spending money that mainly benefits people living elsewhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


They managed to increase the number of trains round the Liverpool loop from 12 to 14 per hour, when the Chester line service was increased. Adding at least another 2 - 4 per hour ought to be feasible. I think a bigger problem might be finding paths for extra trains through the junctions on either side of Bidston station. Could it need a slight reduction in the New Brighton and / or West Kirby line services to make room for a Wrexham - Bidston - Liverpool Loop service ?

Bidston west junction will be aright it would hardly be different to hooton. The east junction though that's a right mess and would need to be sorted out, it diverges into a single track section from B'head north to bidston which in this scenario is now taking 6tph each way half of them crossing the track to new Brighton not sure what you would do about it short of a fly over.

 

[Wavertreelad]

A problem with Heswall station is that it is in a relatively lightly populated area, over one mile from the town centre. Also, Helsby is a lot smaller than either Ormskirk or Kirkby. Neston station is close to the town centre, but outside the Merseyside area, and in the current fininacial situation, i don't see Nerseytravel spending money that mainly benefits people living elsewhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps what we should not forget is the planned Peel redevelopment of Wirral Waters on the Birkenhead Docks system over the coming years is supposed to generate thousands of new jobs. Whilst many will be filled be from local workers in the Birkenhead/Wallasey area, the line takes a route through some un-employment black spots and it may be seen as advantageous if a station could be provided in the area, although I am not exactly sure where. Another option could be building a new station with a large car park adjacent to the M53 which could then offer commuters from South Wirral a much improved park and ride service into Birkenhead, Liverpool relieving existing facilities on the Mersey side of the peninsular. Heswall and Neston would almost certainly see increases in population if the line was upgraded as commuting would be much easier to the main centres, let alone the leisure travel that the line could attract. Consider also the moves by local authorities to work together and pool resources making such schemes far more attractive, especially if the Welsh Government were to chip in a with a sizeable contribution which could be partly funded by EU money.

 

[kieron]

There's also a large development plan (called Northern Gateway) which includes some of the area around Hawarden Bridge station. I haven't found anything to say whether this is likely to make public transport more relevant to the current industrial estate, but it may lead to more trains including Hawarden Bridge as a stop.

I don't think the developers have done anything on the ground yet.

Network Rail have done various studies into improving this line (such as the one mentioned here), so I suspect the changes which would be needed to do any of this are fairly well studied. I don't know if they publish their work anywhere.

 

[Gareth Marston]

A problem with Heswall station is that it is in a relatively lightly populated area, over one mile from the town centre. Also, Helsby is a lot smaller than either Ormskirk or Kirkby. Neston station is close to the town centre, but outside the Merseyside area, and in the current fininacial situation, i don't see Nerseytravel spending money that mainly benefits people living elsewhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps what we should not forget is the planned Peel redevelopment of Wirral Waters on the Birkenhead Docks system over the coming years is supposed to generate thousands of new jobs. Whilst many will be filled be from local workers in the Birkenhead/Wallasey area, the line takes a route through some un-employment black spots and it may be seen as advantageous if a station could be provided in the area, although I am not exactly sure where. Another option could be building a new station with a large car park adjacent to the M53 which could then offer commuters from South Wirral a much improved park and ride service into Birkenhead, Liverpool relieving existing facilities on the Mersey side of the peninsular. Heswall and Neston would almost certainly see increases in population if the line was upgraded as commuting would be much easier to the main centres, let alone the leisure travel that the line could attract. Consider also the moves by local authorities to work together and pool resources making such schemes far more attractive, especially if the Welsh Government were to chip in a with a sizeable contribution which could be partly funded by EU money.

Wrexham and Flintshire are designated "east Wales" and are therefore not in the more favored areas for EU funding in the next round. The A465 road seems to be the transport project favored so far in anything I've seen about next round 2014-2020.

 

[daikilo]

Irrespective of the Wrexham debate, Merseyrail has talked in the past about extending from Bidston either to Upton, or to a new station south of there at Woodchurch.
The urban area and Merseytravel area runs out to Heswall though.
Neston is in Cheshire West but is like Hooton in terms of distance from Birkenhead, and has some well-heeled commuters.
The hinterland changes completely south of there.
The debate about where to terminate electric working was complicated by the fact that the rump service south to Wrexham from any of these stations would be very expensive to operate with DMUs, in terms of stock, crews and signalling for reversals.
They would also be as unattractive to change at as Bidston is today, as none of them is a destination in its own right.

Even in the 1970s there were discussions to extend 750VDC to Neston or even better a new station close to Ness. The ideal was thought to be a running time from Bidston similar to West Kirby so that services would mesh. However, this may no longer be a need.

Extending beyond Neston/Ness would need a pretty massive park and ride somewhere near a major road to capture Birkenhead/Liverpool commuters from North Wales to justify a 15 minute frequency and the additional fares revenue may need local support. If that could also allow a single train shuttle from Wrexham it might work.

If the Deeside business park does take off then travel could be bi-directional with a high-frequency bus inside the park. The trick will be to ensure that any-time car-commutes take more time than 15-minute train+bus and that means essentially Neston and Heswall.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Even in the 1970s there were discussions to extend 750VDC to Neston or even better a new station close to Ness. The ideal was thought to be a running time from Bidston similar to West Kirby so that services would mesh. However, this may no longer be a need.

Thanks for this information. It was this matter that I had in mind when I made my posting that referred to historical discussions. I had thought it was only as far as Heswall, so your line information to either Neston or Ness is most welcome.

 

[merlodlliw]

Thanks for this information. It was this matter that I had in mind when I made my posting that referred to historical discussions. I had thought it was only as far as Heswall, so your line information to either Neston or Ness is most welcome.

Professor Stuart Cole, a rail advisor to Welsh Governmernt mentions Wrexham – Bidston is currently a diesel service and thus a W&B franchise operation
as Merseyrail is entirely electric... The objective is to electrify the line and create a 'circle line' service between Liverpool – Birkenhead – Chester – Wrexham General – Wrexham Central - Wirral Stations – Bidston – Birkenhead – Liverpool. When this is complete the service would transfer to Merseyrail with a Memorandum of understanding between Welsh Government and Merseytravel on fares, train frequencies and reliability and service interchange for Welsh travellers



His idea would go through several County Council areas,Wirral,Merseyside,West Cheshire & Chester,Flintshire & Wrexham

 

[Midlandman]

Would an inbound electric train still be timed to arrive at Wrexham Central 2 minutes AFTER the outbound is scheduled to depart, despite the fact that it's the same train? (Seriously, check the timetable. Inbound, due Central xx.32, outbound due to depart xx.30. Where do they make the time up?)

 

[merlodlliw]

Would an inbound electric train still be timed to arrive at Wrexham Central 2 minutes AFTER the outbound is scheduled to depart, despite the fact that it's the same train? (Seriously, check the timetable. Inbound, due Central xx.32, outbound due to depart xx.30. Where do they make the time up?)

I am sure TDK who drives the 150s on this line will tell us

 

[edwin_m]

Not TDK but this has been discussed before somewhere. The turnaround is pretty short to start with and the usual slab of padding has been added to the published arrival time.

 

[The Planner]

3 minute turnaround, arrive xx:29 depart xx:32

 

[185]

Apparently only 14 trains per hour pass through the Wirral Line platform at Liverpool Central, so perhaps with the caveat of resignalling it should be feasible to add 4tph more for the Bidston line.

Correct. 14 paths per hour, occasionally 17 in the peak. A rough headway of around 1 per 4 minutes. It is just feasible to add two more paths to allow a half-hourly Wrexham to comfortably work around the loop.

The great obstacle seems not to be infrastructure or rolling stock, but the stuck-in-the-muds at both Merseytravel and the Welsh Govt who talk about some brilliant projects but never seem to actually want to go ahead with them.

 

[tbtc]

Professor Stuart Cole, a rail advisor to Welsh Governmernt mentions Wrexham – Bidston is currently a diesel service and thus a W&B franchise operation
as Merseyrail is entirely electric... The objective is to electrify the line and create a 'circle line' service between Liverpool – Birkenhead – Chester – Wrexham General – Wrexham Central - Wirral Stations – Bidston – Birkenhead – Liverpool. When this is complete the service would transfer to Merseyrail with a Memorandum of understanding between Welsh Government and Merseytravel on fares, train frequencies and reliability and service interchange for Welsh travellers

Electrification from Bidston to Wrexham would be great.

Electrification from Chester to Wrexham would be great (with the double tracking hopefully resolved way before!).

I could certainly see decent demand for a direct service from Wrexham into Liverpool.

But presumably it'd be either one or the other? I can't understand the idea behind a "circular" service (nobody would do Chester to Shotton via Wrexham)

 

[Class172]

Electrification from Bidston to Wrexham would be great.

Electrification from Chester to Wrexham would be great (with the double tracking hopefully resolved way before!).

I could certainly see decent demand for a direct service from Wrexham into Liverpool.

But presumably it'd be either one or the other? I can't understand the idea behind a "circular" service (nobody would do Chester to Shotton via Wrexham)

I would have expected a direct Wrexham-Liverpool service to run via Bidston; it seems a more logical extension to me.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Obviously this would be expensive and is unlikely, but since the Welsh 'devolution-lite' the Wrexham-Bidston line has become even more of an anomaly when it comes to funding/franchising/stock allocation. Perhaps a solution would be to re-install a curve at Shotton and allow services from Wrexham to continue along the coast? Couple that with electrification (of either type) from Bidston to Shotton High-Level and run 2tph from the Liverpool loop to there.
A Wales and Borders DMU service could then run all-stations Wrexham Central-Llandudno/Bangor which would allow the express coast services (from Manchester/Crewe/Euston) to be speeded up by skipping some stops. This would prevent the anomaly of North Wales needing a small allocation of 150s for the Conwy Valley and Borderlands that has been highlighted in a couple of threads about future cascades- A larger fleet would be needed which would be more viable.
An added bonus would be that Cardiff-Holyhead services could serve Wrexham without needing to reverse at Chester (Chester would no longer be served, but perhaps extending the Crewe-Chester shuttles to Wrexham General would reduce the impact of this?). Unlike Wrexham-Chester, Wrexham-Shotton is double track throughout (the short stretch through Exchange to Central (which wouldn't be used by longer distance services anyway) notwithstanding) so even if the new Shotton curve was only single or if only one platform at the high level was available this shouldn't have a major impact on reliability...

Just a thought, by all means shoot it down in flames!

EDIT: Just looked on Google maps and the alignment of the former curve can clearly be seen. There has been some small development at the Western end but nothing that would be insurmountable I'd have thought. It'd be interesting to see how such a scheme would compare (CBA-wise) with the Wrexham-Chester redoubling...

 

[Eagle]

But presumably it'd be either one or the other? I can't understand the idea behind a "circular" service (nobody would do Chester to Shotton via Wrexham)

It wouldn't really be a circular service. It'd be two services from Liverpool to Wrexham, one via Bidston and Shotton and one via Rock Ferry and Chester, with the unit diagrams alternating between the two services.

 

[Taunton]

I remember when the Mersey line from Birkenhead to Liverpool had 24 trains per hour, and it was like this from 1938 into the 1970s. The terminus at Liverpool Central had just a single headshunt beyond the platforms. Every train in the peak turned round there in 3-4 minutes, there was no space for them to do otherwise. There was no burrowing junction at Hamilton Square, just a flat double junction. Outside the tunnels it was all semaphore signalling. The Rock Ferry line was every 5 minutes at peak periods, the most intensive BR route anywhere. In peak periods I never recall a single delay.

How is this not attainable today?

 

[tbtc]

It wouldn't really be a circular service. It'd be two services from Liverpool to Wrexham, one via Bidston and Shotton and one via Rock Ferry and Chester, with the unit diagrams alternating between the two services.

It just seems a bit optimistic to try to get both lines electrified at the same time - enthusiasts are fascinated with "circulars" though (see also the convoluted plans for Burnley - Manchester - Burnley services)

I would have expected a direct Wrexham-Liverpool service to run via Bidston; it seems a more logical extension to me.

I'd imagine that it'd be faster via Bidston and would help more intermediate stops, but then it'd be cheaper from Chester to Wrexham (since it'd be shorter).

Also, electrification from Chester to Wrexham could allow the current hourly service to be beefed up (the parallel bus service is every ten minutes IIRC, but the trains are only hourly at the moment - limited by the single track).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I would have expected a direct Wrexham-Liverpool service to run via Bidston; it seems a more logical extension to me.

Not at all.
There is far greater demand on the Wrexham-Chester and Chester-Liverpool sections than Wrexham-Bidston.
The Bidston line is also desperately slow (40mph south of Dee Marsh Jn, 50mph northwards), and has no major population centre en route.
It's also 2.5 miles further than via Chester (30 versus 27.5 to Hamilton Square). Journey times would be slower via Bidston.
60% of the route via Chester is electrified already.
If you were to do one route it would be the Chester one.
The dual routes would make Wrexham a significant node on the Merseyrail network and offer useful alternative and complementary journeys.
You'd need a bit of remodelling at Wrexham to get Chester trains into Wrexham Central to terminate on the branch.