'Big man' vs Sam Main incident (final decision: no charges for either)

[Bungle73]

No offence but have you actually worked a train??? have you had to deal with persons like Mr Main on a reasonably Regular basis when you and the Driver are the only 2 railway employees? how do you think the Conductor felt, I know I would have felt threatened by his behaviour and so would most, We cannot rely on the police due to lack of numbers, we are in a metal tube and the majority of the time we are by ourselves dealing with persons like Mr Main, The conductor involved would not have stood a chance if Mr Main was physically aggressive, good on Mr Pollock for what he did.

But he wasn't "physically aggressive" was he? So where was the justification to manhandle him like that?

Tell me how your job is made easier by prompting someone to precipitate a full scale fight?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

But he wasn't "physically aggressive" was he? So where was the justification to manhandle him like that?

Tell me how your job is made easier by prompting someone to precipitate a full scale fight?

So what you are saying is its OK for Mr Pollock to help the guard if Mr Main is pounding his face in (Late Teens Vs. late 50's Early 60's) but its not OK to pre-empt the action considering Mr Main WAS being Verbally aggressive (usually the next step is physically aggresive)..OK then please tell that to the numerous railway personnel who are assaulted in their line of work just because people Waited to see what would happen...what a great world we live in

 

[jon0844]

He may have been seconds away from doing something worse. I bet the RPI that was stabbed didn't get told he would get knifed, or that the person had a blade.

You can't say Mr Main might not have done anything more if he hadn't been thrown off.

 

[Bungle73]

You're both pulling stuff of the air. Where is there any evidence that he intended to do any such thing? Was it even suspected that he might do it? No.

You seem to be saying that the way to prevent staff assaults is to pre-emptively assault unruly passengers on the off chance that they might do "something".

 

[Tav77]

You're both pulling stuff of the air. Where is there any evidence that he intended to do any such thing? Was it even suspected that he might do it? No.

You seem to be saying that the way to prevent staff assaults is to pre-emptively assault unruly passengers on the off chance that they might do "something".

Prevention is better than Cure

 

[Chew Chew]

You're both pulling stuff of the air. Where is there any evidence that he intended to do any such thing? Was it even suspected that he might do it? No.

You seem to be saying that the way to prevent staff assaults is to pre-emptively assault unruly passengers on the off chance that they might do "something".

Sam Main was verbally abusive to the guard.

If he was verbally abusive what is to say he wouldn't be physically abusive?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

You're both pulling stuff of the air. Where is there any evidence that he intended to do any such thing? Was it even suspected that he might do it? No.

You seem to be saying that the way to prevent staff assaults is to pre-emptively assault unruly passengers on the off chance that they might do "something".

The way he was acting, Yes! he was getting more and more aggressive as it went along he didn't like being told off and lets face it the Guard would not have stood a chance. he was being aggressive in his attitude towards the guard and without intervention could easily have escalated, you seem to think turn a blind eye works far more effectively

 

[Tin Rocket]

Maybe TOC's should start passenger profiling at station entrances then,barr people from travelling if they look like a chav or look like they may use foul language.

 

[Chew Chew]

Maybe TOC's should start passenger profiling at station entrances then,barr people from travelling if they look like a chav or look like they may use foul language.

Sounds good to me.

 

[AlterEgo]

Maybe TOC's should start passenger profiling at station entrances then,barr people from travelling if they look like a chav or look like they may use foul language.

Northern and Merseyrail would lose half of their custom overnight.

 

[EM2]

You're both pulling stuff of the air. Where is there any evidence that he intended to do any such thing? Was it even suspected that he might do it? No.

Yes. Verbal abuse is often a prequel to physical violence. If I was in the guard's shoes, I would have certainly have the fear of being attacked in the back of my mind, especially bearing in mind that not far from Polmont there is a large Young Offender's Institute.

 

[Bungle73]

Prevention is better than Cure

Unbelievable.

Sam Main was verbally abusive to the guard.

If he was verbally abusive what is to say he wouldn't be physically abusive?

What's to say the Last Judgement hadn't have come and the dead risen from their graves?

The way he was acting, Yes! he was getting more and more aggressive as it went along he didn't like being told off and lets face it the Guard would not have stood a chance. he was being aggressive in his attitude towards the guard and without intervention could easily have escalated, you seem to think turn a blind eye works far more effectively

Tell me how is escalating the situation into a fight "effective"?

What does your rule book say about dealing with "ticketless" passengers who refuse to cough up and won't leave the train? I can bet it's not "Defer responsibly to a random passenger to chuck them off, and have them thrown to the ground if they attempt to re-board".

Yes. Verbal abuse is often a prequel to physical violence. If I was in the guard's shoes, I would have certainly have the fear of being attacked in the back of my mind.

You'd be in fear of attack because someone said "I've shown you my f'ing ticket"?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Northern and Merseyrail would lose half of their custom overnight.

Maybe a quarter but not half

 

[EM2]

You'd be in fear of attack ecause someone said "I've shown you my f'ing ticket"?

In that particular situation, where the aggressor doesn't seem to have been well-behaved at all during it and where the person is travelling to (he could have been on a day realease from the YOI), and seeing as I have a colleague who had a knife pulled on him, while working at a central London station, on the concourse, in the middle of rush-hour, simply for asking someone to move to one side so that a crowded platfrom could clear quickly, then yes I would.

 

[Bungle73]

In that particular situation, where the aggressor doesn't seem to have been well-behaved at all during it and where the person is travelling to (he could have been on a day realease from the YOI), and seeing as I have a colleague who had a knife pulled on him, while working at a central London station, on the concourse, in the middle of rush-hour, simply for asking someone to move to one side so that a crowded platfrom could clear quickly, then yes I would.

Maybe he could have been a mad axe murderer too.

 

[Chew Chew]

Bungle73, there really is no point continuing on the discussion with you because you refuse to accept anyone else's opinion as being valid.

There are rail professionals on here who have had to deal with the like of Sam Main before and they know what the outcome can and has been and how quickly things can escalate from verbal abuse to physical abuse but you seem to know better than all of them.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

What does you rule book say about dealing with "ticketless" passengers who refuse to cough up and won't leave the train? I can bet is not "Defer responsibly to a random passenger, and have them thrown to the ground if they attempt to re-board".



You'd be in fear of attack because someone said "I've shown you my f'ing ticket"?

pssst there is no "Rule book" regarding Persons like Mr Main, that is to do with many other things except Abusive Passengers, regarding Aggressive passengers like Mr Main, everyone handles the situation that they feel under each circumstance would be best suited, The Conductor used the old this train isn't moving to you leave trick (which tends to work the majority of the time) He said it quite clearly to Mr Main, who responded with Potty mouth aka Verbal abuse, he was acting in a threatening manner, passengers were fed up with him and one (Mr Pollock) rightly or wrongly in the eyes of the law (we will see when it goes to court) asked the Guard if he wanted Mr Main off, the Guard said Yes, not once did the Guard tell Mr Pollock to throw him off, even though that is what he probably would have wanted, Mr Pollock saw someone in need of help from an abusive Teenager, he did what was morally right, good on him

 

[EM2]

asked the Guard if he wanted Mr Main off, the Guard said Yes, not once did the Guard tell Mr Pollock to throw him off, even though that is what he probably would have wanted, Mr Pollock saw someone in need of help from an abusive Teenager, he did what was morally right, good on him

That, to me, is the important bit.
The guard wanted him off, and he's already told him to get off and he's refused. That's a Byelaw breach, right there.
'Do you want him off?'
'Yes'
Now, if he'd said 'Do you want me to get him off?' and the guard said 'Yes', that a different matter entirely.

 

[WestCoast]

Northern and Merseyrail would lose half of their custom overnight.

Oi! This sort of thing occurs everywhere.

Just because someone dresses like a 'chav', doesn't mean they are going to be agressive fare evading scum. To be honest, Sam Main didn't look like your usual 'chav'.

 

[Tav77]

Maybe he could have been a mad axe murderer too.

Unbelieveable

 

[EM2]

Maybe he could have been a mad axe murderer too.

Damn right he could, and it was only because there was an off-duty BTP officer on the aggressor's blind side, that managed to disarm him, that my colleague didnt get slashed.

 

[Bungle73]

Bungle73, there really is no point continuing on the discussion with you because you refuse to accept anyone else's opinion as being valid.

There are rail professionals on here who have had to deal with the like of Sam Main before and they know what the outcome can and has been and how quickly things can escalate from verbal abuse to physical abuse but you seem to know better than all of them.

In other words you can't defend this guy's actions based on the evidence at hand, and not by pulling assumptions out of the air. Fair enough.

pssst there is no "Rule book" regarding Persons like Mr Main, that is to do with many other things except Abusive Passengers, regarding Aggressive passengers like Mr Main, everyone handles the situation that they feel under each circumstance would be best suited, The Conductor used the old this train isn't moving to you leave trick (which tends to work the majority of the time) He said it quite clearly to Mr Main, who responded with Potty mouth aka Verbal abuse, he was acting in a threatening manner, passengers were fed up with him and one (Mr Pollock) rightly or wrongly in the eyes of the law (we will see when it goes to court) asked the Guard if he wanted Mr Main off, the Guard said Yes, not once did the Guard tell Mr Pollock to throw him off, even though that is what he probably would have wanted, Mr Pollock saw someone in need of help from an abusive Teenager, he did what was morally right, good on him

Of course he told him to do it:

"Do you want him off"?
"Yes"

That's as clear as day to me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unbelieveable

Well since we appear to be pulling **** out of the air.....

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Bungle73, there really is no point continuing on the discussion with you because you refuse to accept anyone else's opinion as being valid.

Aren't you doing exactly the same thing?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

In other words you can't defend this guy's actions based on the evidence at hand, and not by pulling assumptions out of the air. Fair enough.



Of course he told him to do it:

"Do you want him off"?
"Yes"

That's as clear as day to me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Well since we appear to be pulling **** out of the air.....

maybe to you but not a court of law, nowhere on the footage did the Guard ask Mr Pollock to eject the Verbally Abusive Male, Mr Pollock asked a question the Guard answered, he did not ask anywhere on the footage.

 

[EM2]

Of course he told him to do it:

"Do you want him off"?
"Yes"

That's as clear as day to me.

It's answering a question! He was asked if if he wanted Mr Main off the train, which he did.
He was NOT asked if he wanted Mr. Pollock to get him off the train.

'Bungle73, do you want this person to stop swearing at you, stopping you doing your job, holding up this train and inconveniencing these other passengers?'
What's your answer?

 

[Bungle73]

maybe to you but not a court of law, nowhere on the footage did the Guard ask Mr Pollock to eject the Verbally Abusive Male, Mr Pollock asked a question the Guard answered, he did not ask anywhere on the footage.

Maybe in lala land. If someone says "Do you want him off" any reasonable person would take that to mean "Do you want me to get him off".

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Aren't you doing exactly the same thing?

The joys of Forums (and I am just as bad as anyone else)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Maybe in lala land. If someone says "Do you want him off" any reasonable person would take that to mean "Do you want me to get him off".

Not Lala land just about every court in the British Isles and I'm sure our resident Solicitor would probably agree.

 

[dggar]

Today's guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/dec/21/men-prosecution-fare-train-row?INTCMP=SRCH

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I'm not sure what's gained by continuing this discussion. We're covering the same ground again and again and again. It's clear nobody is going to change their mind on this.

 

[Chew Chew]

In other words you can't defend this guy's actions based on the evidence at hand, and not by pulling assumptions out of the air. Fair enough.

Sam Main didn't have a valid ticket to travel;
Sam Main swore at a guard in front of young children;
Sam Main refused to get off the train when requested by the guard.

I'm comfortable with what happened to Sam Main. If he hadn't done any of the the things I've listed above he wouldn't have ended up with a graze on his face.

Aren't you doing exactly the same thing?

If you can show me where I've discounted the opposing opinion to mine and said that my opinion is the only one that is correct I'll agree with you.