Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds flows

[Philip]

Out of the three big cities after London, which rail passenger flow is usually the busiest; for commuting, business and leisure?

Manchester-Leeds, Manchester-Birmingham or Birmingham-Leeds?

 

[Sweetjesus]

Has to be Manchester-Leeds, a quick look on Realtimetrains tells me there are appoximately 4-5 tph between these two cities. It also helps that they're both close enough to be within a commutable distance. Next popular is Manchester-Birmingham and then Birmingham-Leeds in my opinion.

 

[Philip]

Manchester to Birmingham is a distance still arguably just about within normal commuting range too. Is it possible the strong air links but rather weak rail service between these two cities persuades more people to either fly or drive, compared with Manchester-Leeds which has a frequent rail service?

 

[Watershed]

Manchester to Birmingham is a distance still arguably just about within normal commuting range too. Is it possible the strong air links but rather weak rail service between these two cities persuades more people to either fly or drive, compared with Manchester-Leeds which has a frequent rail service?

Strong air links? Err, how many flights a day do you think there are?

 

[Bald Rick]

I don’t know about numbers of journeys, but in revenue terms, Manchester to Leeds and Manchester to Birmingham are about the same. Leeds to Birmingham is about half each of them.

 

[Philip]

Strong air links? Err, how many flights a day do you think there are?

I'm going off the fact that each city has its own major airport, without knowing what the service level is.


If the Birmingham services had the same number of rail coaches per hour as Manchester to Leeds does, do people think the trains would be carting a lot of fresh air; or would a better rail frequency simply persuade people to switch from the M6 to the train?

 

[Darandio]

I'm going off the fact that each city has its own major airport, without knowing what the service level is.

I believe it's precisely zero.

 

[Watershed]

I'm going off the fact that each city has its own major airport, without knowing what the service level is.

If you go on that basis, then surely Liverpool and Manchester should have direct flights as well?

I believe it's precisely zero.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner!

 

[Birmingham]

I don’t see why many would commute between these major cities given they’re employment centres of their own. It might be interesting to compare their respective commute flows, e.g. Coventry-Birmingham and Macclesfield-Manchester.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'm going off the fact that each city has its own major airport, without knowing what the service level is.


If the Birmingham services had the same number of rail coaches per hour as Manchester to Leeds does, do people think the trains would be carting a lot of fresh air; or would a better rail frequency simply persuade people to switch from the M6 to the train?

People would switch from the M6. The
M56/M6 Interchange to M54 section of the M6 is notorious for accidents and delays. The train fare is partly so high on the section because there is barely any capacity from Mcr to London via Trent Valley or Brum and it is usually the same London via Brum services that provide Manchester to Brum connections.

 

[Philip]

Is it known yet when the second Manchester-Birmingham will be reinstated and whether all services will continue as 8-10 car double Voyagers, because of the extra stock arriving from Avanti?

 

[The Planner]

Is it known yet when the second Manchester-Birmingham will be reinstated and whether all services will continue as 8-10 car double Voyagers, because of the extra stock arriving from Avanti?

Some will be back in May 23, and they won't be doubles as Avanti won't have any 800s until the back end of next year.

 

[Watershed]

Some will be back in May 23, and they won't be doubles as Avanti won't have any 800s until the back end of next year.

Avanti have already handed back several 221s. It would have been perfectly feasible for those to be in service with XC now, but of course the DfT has other ideas...

 

[jonesy3001]

Depends which TOC your travelling with between leeds and manchester, mostly TPE from piccadilly, victoria has northern(158s/195s) that go via rochdale and the calder valley, mostly stoppers with the odd express in between or the TPE trains that go via stalybridge to leeds.
Cheaper by northern and they turn up.

 

[TUC]

Faced with a choice of work meeting locations from most parts of the country to Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham or London, Birmingham is usually the least favoured amongst colleagues. It takes more people longer to get there than the other options, even when it is shorter mileage.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it known yet when the second Manchester-Birmingham will be reinstated and whether all services will continue as 8-10 car double Voyagers, because of the extra stock arriving from Avanti?

That move is only theoretical at the moment. I wouldn’t bank on it happening any time soon.

 

[lammergeier]

deleted, misread post

 

[dk1]

Avanti have already handed back several 221s. It would have been perfectly feasible for those to be in service with XC now, but of course the DfT has other ideas...

I thought it was only two units. Have more gone off lease?

 

[30907]

I don’t know about numbers of journeys, but in revenue terms, Manchester to Leeds and Manchester to Birmingham are about the same.

In distance terms it's near enough 1:2 so you might expect passenger numbers to be about 2:1 and service provision likewise - which a few years ago was broadly correct.

 

[Envoy]

Avanti have already handed back several 221s. It would have been perfectly feasible for those to be in service with XC now, but of course the DfT has other ideas...

So, are these 221’s just sitting around lying idle while people on the Cross Country Cardiff > Gloucester >Birmingham > Nottingham route can find themselves rammed into 2 car 170’s?

 

[Watershed]

So, are these 221’s just sitting around lying idle while people on the Cross Country Cardiff > Gloucester >Birmingham > Nottingham route can find themselves rammed into 2 car 170’s?

Yes, in essence. They are off lease and simply sitting at Central Rivers depot AFAIK.

 

[lammergeier]

Yes, in essence. They are off lease and simply sitting at Central Rivers depot AFAIK.

Correct. Just sat there refurbished, unbranded and unused.

 

[dk1]

So, are these 221’s just sitting around lying idle while people on the Cross Country Cardiff > Gloucester >Birmingham > Nottingham route can find themselves rammed into 2 car 170’s?

Unless the DfT authorise XC to lease additional fleet & stump up the cost that's how they'll stay for the time being.

 

[Envoy]

Unless the DfT authorise XC to lease additional fleet & stump up the cost that's how they'll stay for the time being.

That’s appalling.

 

[lammergeier]

That’s appalling.

That's the reality of the railway right now, and it's a good example of how the Treasury and DfT's relentless focus on driving down costs is not working for passengers.

 

[yorksrob]

That’s appalling.

That's railway privatisation for you.

Until the leasing model is done away with, things won't improve.

 

[APT618S]

Unless the DfT authorise XC to lease additional fleet & stump up the cost that's how they'll stay for the time being.

Anybody know if/when 220019 is getting repaired. I presume this is the one you can see at the back of the depot with one cab covered in black plastic as it was mentioned on here that it hit a tree a while back. Given XC are this one down you would think one of the Avanti ones could replace it, if only until it is repaired.

 

[geoffk]

That's the reality of the railway right now, and it's a good example of how the Treasury and DfT's relentless focus on driving down costs is not working for passengers.

I get the message that the nation's finances don't run to new trains, but I don't see why the bean counters aren't even prepared to put fuel in the ones we've already got. Moving these Voyagers to Cross-Country would release 170s which could then allow, say, the remaining 153s to go off-lease (although it would be better to keep them!)

 

[dk1]

I get the message that the nation's finances don't run to new trains, but I don't see why the bean counters aren't even prepared to put fuel in the ones we've already got. Moving these Voyagers to Cross-Country would release 170s which could then allow, say, the remaining 153s to go off-lease (although it would be better to keep them!)

It’s all quite complex as the TOCs are on very stringent contracts with what they can/can’t lease. Just look at how long it took for XC to get the extra 6 centre cars for their 2-car 170s long before the pandemic was foreseen.

 

[O L Leigh]

Anybody know if/when 220019 is getting repaired. I presume this is the one you can see at the back of the depot with one cab covered in black plastic as it was mentioned on here that it hit a tree a while back.

“Imminently”.