Birmingham New Street pollution

[joncombe]

Apologies if this has been discussed already (I could only find a thread from 2016, now closed and this seems more recent news), but I see this on the BBC today.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-...ution&&ns_fee=0#post_5b6b2a13a081040678934c1c

To quote

In March, researchers from the University of Birmingham told a city council health scrutiny committee that the levels of nitrogen dioxide sometimes tripled the threshold for an air quality "incident".

Also

At the time, the station was compared by councillors to a steel foundry and it was declared the biggest pollution-related risk to public health in the city.

Surely it's time that the train operators were required to shut down engines on arrival at the station and not start them up again until they are ready to leave? I know Cross Country in particular seem to have quite long stops at the station and always seem to leave the engines running. I imagine this has got worse since the Voyagers since previously with the HSTs (and 47s/Mk2) the engine(s) would be at the far end of the train and therefore often not in the enclosed part of the station.

 

[Spankthemonkey]

I once asked one of the platform staff there years ago if they were issued with smog masks or were put on a strict time limited rota, and was very surprised there was nothing in place at all. Must be life shortening working there.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I once asked one of the platform staff there years ago if they were issued with smog masks or were put on a strict time limited rota, and was very surprised there was nothing in place at all. Must be life shortening working there.

Spark everything up. Rolling program of electrification using New Street as the focal point. Worcester, Gloucester, Derby, Nuneaton

 

[Bletchleyite]

When it really starts to stink down there the pulse-jet fans start up and they clear it pretty sharpish. Problem is you can't hear yourself think (let alone hear any announcements) when they do; they are like standing right next to a 747 taking off. I almost missed the last train home from there due to a platform alteration when they were running once, and I suspect some people (who weren't using RTT) probably *did* miss it.

 

[mallard]

Spark everything up. Rolling program of electrification using New Street as the focal point. Worcester, Gloucester, Derby, Nuneaton

The old plan of electrification would have enabled the South Coast - Manchester route to operate with electrics and the MML wiring would have enhanced the (already good) case for bi-modes on XC (which could run electric through Birmingham).

It's a shame the government only cares about air quality in London (it was mentioned in the justification for bi-modes on the MML during the recent franchise consultation) and not elsewhere.

 

[twpsaesneg]

Try kneeling on the track there.

It's a unique mix of sump oil, shi**y toilet roll and wee. Delightful.

 

[Mikey C]

With bimodes, the obvious thing (if you don't electrify the whole network) is to electrify such pollution black spots. Leave open countryside for later.

Pollution around New Street is a major issue, hopefully the West Midlands mayor will be pushing for a solution to this

 

[Muzer]

I'm told that they accidentally made the ventilation worse when they installed the new shopping centre but I'm not sure how much truth there is to this.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

With bimodes, the obvious thing (if you don't electrify the whole network) is to electrify such pollution black spots. Leave open countryside for later.

Pollution around New Street is a major issue, hopefully the West Midlands mayor will be pushing for a solution to this

Exactly

 

[Ianno87]

With bimodes, the obvious thing (if you don't electrify the whole network) is to electrify such pollution black spots. Leave open countryside for later.

Pollution around New Street is a major issue, hopefully the West Midlands mayor will be pushing for a solution to this

If the new XC franchise introduces bi-modes, this is a genuinely good idea! Would take a big chunk of diesel working out of New St and the West Midlands.

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

This being the UK what are the odds that we will spend lots of money getting consultants in to produce volumes of glossy paper, and the report will state what everyone already knows, ie as suggested above.

 

[NotATrainspott]

This pollution problem at Birmingham New Street (and other major stations) is why I think a new fleet of bi-modes isn't that unlikely for the new CrossCountry operator. This level of pollution is only going to be a liability for the railway in future - how long until some enterprising lawyer finds a way to take NR to the cleaners about the pollution levels staff and passengers are exposed to?

 

[joncombe]

I once asked one of the platform staff there years ago if they were issued with smog masks or were put on a strict time limited rota, and was very surprised there was nothing in place at all. Must be life shortening working there.

Yes indeed. I'm surprised the Unions have not recommended something. Mind you not sure it gives a good impressions to passengers if the staff are wearing smog masks.

 

[KevinTurvey]

I could write my name with a wet finger in the soot on some of the the white cladding panels, just over a year after refurbishment. I don't know how dirty they are now.

Although I don't think New St is quite as bad as Manchester Victoria when several trains are in - on platforms 5 and 6 and the footbridge it can be awful.

 

[1e10]

Sometimes on an evening XC appear to terminate multiple Voyager units, around 3 or so, to a single platform and couple them for ECS movement back to Barton Under Needwood. The Voyagers can be left waiting for anything up to an hour or so waiting for the remaining units to join them, and the diesel particulate in the air starts to build up very quickly. You can see the smog in the light..

The station appears to have extractor fans but doesn't seem to do much.

 

[Mikey C]

This pollution problem at Birmingham New Street (and other major stations) is why I think a new fleet of bi-modes isn't that unlikely for the new CrossCountry operator. This level of pollution is only going to be a liability for the railway in future - how long until some enterprising lawyer finds a way to take NR to the cleaners about the pollution levels staff and passengers are exposed to?

New Street is uniquely bad though due to the sheer number of diesels passing through, stopping and "ticking over" in an enclosed, largely underground area. I don't think any other stations remotely compare

 

[pt_mad]

Havn't they got any sort of decent powerful extractor system? Surely this should have been an absolute must as part of the refurbishment. Even road tunnels have them and nobody spends more than a few minutes in them most of the time.

 

[skyhigh]

Havn't they got any sort of decent powerful extractor system? Surely this should have been an absolute must as part of the refurbishment. Even road tunnels have them and nobody spends more than a few minutes in them most of the time.

They do. Definitely is powerful...!

When it really starts to stink down there the pulse-jet fans start up and they clear it pretty sharpish. Problem is you can't hear yourself think (let alone hear any announcements) when they do; they are like standing right next to a 747 taking off. I almost missed the last train home from there due to a platform alteration when they were running once, and I suspect some people (who weren't using RTT) probably *did* miss it.

 

[pt_mad]

They do. Definitely is powerful...!

Do they pump air out though in the aim of flushing the exhaust air out of the station ends? Or do they suck the bad air in and pipe it out which is what road tunnels do afaik.

 

[Brummigrant]

Do they pump air out though in the aim of flushing the exhaust air out of the station ends? Or do they suck the bad air in and pipe it out which is what road tunnels do afaik.

The former. There are a few fans throughout the platforms and they just blow the pollution to the open air either end of the platforms. It's almost as if we've got a pollution problem in Birmingham!

I've noticed that some diesel voyagers power down while on a long stopover, but if you go down at 8.15am, there are two diesel voyagers: one that goes to Newcastle and one to Manchester. I struggle to breathe across the tracks sometimes, as they both pump out fumes.

The extractor fans are super powerful though, just wish they'd switch them on more!

 

[bussnapperwm]

It's a pity the combined authority couldn't create something similar to the QPS they have for buses covering rail vehicles serving Moor Street and New Street.

 

[Harbornite]

It is rather bad, I remember going there one evening and some Voyagers were ticking away there. Not good.

I imagine this has got worse since the Voyagers since previously with the HSTs (and 47s/Mk2) the engine(s) would be at the far end of the train and therefore often not in the enclosed part of the station.

Indeed, and some 47s on services via Stafford would be taken off and replaced by 86s.

 

[XCTurbostar]

As already mentioned, Voyagers are definitely the problem. I see this issue almost daily and it’s not uncommon to be able to see the smog.

The extractor fans do work but they wait too long before coming on.

I think CrossCountry, like Chiltern, should introduce a system where by the engines shut down after a certain amount of time.

 

[TheDavibob]

As already mentioned, Voyagers are definitely the problem. I see this issue almost daily and it’s not uncommon to be able to see the smog.

Yup, the researchers mentioned in the first post checked pollution levels against which train and comparatively I think Turbostars barely registered. Removing voyagers alone (and ideally as many 170s as possible, 172s are far less worrying) should be a target.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think CrossCountry, like Chiltern, should introduce a system where by the engines shut down after a certain amount of time.

They should just do what DB have done for years and stop the engines when the train stops if it's going to be there for any more than a quick 2 minute stop. Batteries could allow ventilation to continue.

 

[JonasB]

Aren't most tracks at New Street electrified? And are most trains using the station diesels?

Then it seems to me that it would make sense to replace Voyagers with 802s or bi-mode Flirts, and maybe HSTs with 800s/802s. How likely is that to happen, and who decides? Is it up to Crosscountry or does the DfT or someone else have anything to say?

 

[edwin_m]

Aren't most tracks at New Street electrified? And are most trains using the station diesels?

Then it seems to me that it would make sense to replace Voyagers with 802s or bi-mode Flirts, and maybe HSTs with 800s/802s. How likely is that to happen, and who decides? Is it up to Crosscountry or does the DfT or someone else have anything to say?

CrossCountry will have signed up to pay lease rental on its Voyagers and HSTs up to the end of the current franchise, which is close enough that even if a replacement was to be ordered tomorrow it wouldn't come into service until after the new franchise started. The new franchise is in the course of being let and it is quite possible that bidders will offer to replace some or all of the fleet with bi-modes. As well as environmental benefits there should be a saving in running costs if trains can use electric power between Birmingham and Manchester and north of Doncaster or York. If leasing costs for new trains remain relatively low (as they must be for Anglia and SWR to commit to replace relatively modern fleets) then it's quite possible that a case will be made for total fleet repalcement on XC.

 

[richieb1971]

Can't the station just put vacuums above the tracks where the trains park up and suck the diesel fumes out through a ducting system?

The thing to do is fix the trains though. BNS is one such example where we need to understand that not only North south routes going to London need to be OHLE. All the east west routes going there should be too.

 

[DavidGrain]

I think this is going to be down to the Cross Country franchisee in the end as the main problem will be these trains. Suburban trains are (or will be shortly when Rugeley electrification is completed) all electric The only WMR diesels will be the Worcester services. Virgin do run a few Voyagers through New Street.

The problem with bi-modes that I can see is will a Cross country driver bother to raise the pantograph if running in and out of New Street on non electrified lines? eg from Derby to go south via Solihull?

 

[Taunton]

Longstanding concern ...

http://www.ciras.org.uk/reports/tocs/2013/51127-diesel-fumes-at-birmingham-new-street/

... and longstanding excuses by the look of it. Diesels only shut down if standing for over 20 minutes. I wonder if the author of that would like diesel buses idling outside their house for 20 minutes each.

The overhead fans were installed in the 1967 station rebuild. They never seem to have worked satisfactorily. Who switches them on?