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Bizarre routing restriction Bangor - Liverpool

Phil from Mon

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Please forgive if I have missed this somewhere else, but my off-peak ticket Bangor - Liverpool states that it “valid only via Llandudno Junction”. What possible alternative is there - via Holyhead, Dublin and Belfast? Presumably there is a reason for it, but I am at a loss to know.
 
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AlterEgo

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Please forgive if I have missed this somewhere else, but my off-peak ticket Bangor - Liverpool states that it “valid only via Llandudno Junction”. What possible alternative is there - via Holyhead, Dublin and Belfast? Presumably there is a reason for it, but I am at a loss to know.
I think it's part of a drive to cut down "Any Permitted" as a route option for tickets with only one obvious and permitted route.

A period "." has been inserted for many journeys to Liverpool along the North Wales Coast, for some reason they didn't do this for the Holyhead or Bangor tickets.
 

Tazi Hupefi

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TfW (the government side) is gradually pushing for more of the long distance TfW bus services to be added into timetables, journey planners etc - with integrated fares/ticketing, so need to consider the wider TfW network, rather than just the rail element.
 

Starmill

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I think it's part of a drive to cut down "Any Permitted" as a route option for tickets with only one obvious and permitted route.

A period "." has been inserted for many journeys to Liverpool along the North Wales Coast, for some reason they didn't do this for the Holyhead or Bangor tickets.
Exactly. See also Hornbeam Park to Starbeck gaining route Harrogate while York to Harrogate moved over to route "." - it's just the way they did it. In all of these cases I believe there was no change to permitted routes.
 

Watershed

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This is yet another case of the rail industry making things worse in a ham-fisted attempt to "solve" a problem of its own making. Most other railways across the world have a clear and simple system for defining permitted routes, either based on mileage or by listing all the relevant options on the ticket. BR simply worked on the basis of "reasonable routes".

The privatised British industry instead has an arcane set of permitted routes defined in the Routeing Guide - a contractual document so complex, yet ambiguous, that no average passenger could reasonably be expected to understand it. Even industry experts and those who are legally qualified sometimes disagree on the way it should be applied or interpreted.

The obvious solution here would be to make it easy to work out permitted routes by having a "Permitted Routes Calculator" tool available online, where you can see a map listing permitted routes at a glance - or to adopt one of the other approaches I listed above.

But no, when the rail industry was eventually forced to deal with the mess it had created, it instead went for the 'cheap and nasty' solution of removing the phrase "Any Permitted" from some flows (as if to pretend that permitted routes weren't a thing?!), and adding inane "via" points to others, such as Bangor to Chester in this case. Result: big-wigs in the industry could pat themselves on the back for having "simplified ticketing", despite having achieved nothing of the sort.

TfW (the government side) is gradually pushing for more of the long distance TfW bus services to be added into timetables, journey planners etc - with integrated fares/ticketing, so need to consider the wider TfW network, rather than just the rail element.
Bangor-Chester interavailable fares were initially changed from "Any Permitted" to route "." in NFM29 (Jan 2018), but evidently that was still "too complicated" as this was changed to "via Llandudno Jn" just months later in NFM30 (May 2018).

ATW were in charge until October 2018, so this change cannot possibly have had anything to do with the inclusion of bus services into the rail data, much as that's a laudable move.

In all of these cases I believe there was no change to permitted routes.
There was no change to the Routeing Guide, but in several cases the changes to fare routes had unintended consequences in excluding routes that would otherwise be permitted under the Routeing Guide. For example, many of TPE's longer distance cross-Pennine flows are now routed "Leeds York", even though avoiding Leeds and/or York is plausible - and indeed fastest (especially during engineering works) - for a number of journeys.
 

redreni

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TfW (the government side) is gradually pushing for more of the long distance TfW bus services to be added into timetables, journey planners etc - with integrated fares/ticketing, so need to consider the wider TfW network, rather than just the rail element.
So you're saying maybe there are other sensible routes, but if so, people have to be prevented from using them? Even when they pay the standard, walk-up fare?

Surely that wouldn't be the case if there actually was integrated fares and ticketing?
 

Starmill

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There was no change to the Routeing Guide, but in several cases the changes to fare routes had unintended consequences in excluding routes that would otherwise be permitted under the Routeing Guide. For example, many of TPE's longer distance cross-Pennine flows are now routed "Leeds York", even though avoiding Leeds and/or York is plausible - and indeed fastest (especially during engineering works) - for a number of journeys.
Of course yes, in general. I should've been more specific I meant the three cases of journey pairs referenced in the post.
 

Krokodil

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Bangor-Chester interavailable fares were initially changed from "Any Permitted" to route "." in NFM29 (Jan 2018), but evidently that was still "too complicated" as this was changed to "via Llandudno Jn" just months later in NFM30 (May 2018).
If it wasn't for those poxy Avanti (or Virgin as it was in 2018) fares then route "." would be fine. It's ridiculous that an operator providing a handful of services a day can offer dedicated fares, it's just an ORCATS fiddle. Many passengers get stung as a result, some who bought at the TVM and some who had a valid outward journey but not return.

The "via Llandudno Junction" 'fix' doesn't really make things any clearer, staff just get asked "does this train go via Llandudno Junction" (they all do). Really it should be "Any Operator" because that makes it clear what services you can use the ticket on without anyone trying to take the mickey and travel via silly routes.
 

Belperpete

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Agreed. Passengers presented with two fares, one cheaper than the other, are naturally going to go for the cheapest. IIRC, when I bought my ticket from the TVM at Bangor last weekend, the fare it initially presented me with was the Avanti fare - fortunately I knew better and selected the "show other fares" option. Had I not researched the fares beforehand, I could well have selected that fare, and been caught out.
 

Krokodil

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Agreed. Passengers presented with two fares, one cheaper than the other, are naturally going to go for the cheapest.
It's worse than that. If you select "Day Return" on the TVM the only option listed will be the Avanti one, so that's the one people select. I believe that Any Permitted Day Returns were removed some years ago as a response to overcrowding - rather typical that the response to overcrowding in North Wales is to hike prices, the Small Group Day tickets from Bangor to Chester disappeared a few years ago too. Even after the 10% cut in North Wales fares in the early days of TfW, prices are still higher than in South Wales.
 

Mcr Warrior

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It's worse than that. If you select "Day Return" on the TVM the only option listed will be the Avanti one, so that's the one people select.
Which for a midweek journey from Bangor to Chester restricts you to just four (of 17?) possible outward journey opportunities and five (of 20?) back again.
 

Llandudno

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Which for a midweek journey from Bangor to Chester restricts you to just four (of 17?) possible outward journey opportunities and five (of 20?) back again.
That’s assuming Avanti to bother running any of the return trains west of Crewe…!
 

Welshman

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Quite! And, once you're lumbered with a "route Avanti" ticket, you can't exactly excess it to travel with TfW :rolleyes:
My wife tried it a little while ago when the Avanti connection was cancelled between Manchester Piccadilly and Crewe, and the TfW conductor just raised his eyes skywards and said "Avanti up to their tricks again?" and passed on.
 

Northerngirl

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It is ridiculous how the faster service it cheaper, you would have thought if we have to deal with idiotic one opperator only tickets, the surcharge would be on the express, not the other way round
 

Krokodil

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It is ridiculous how the faster service it cheaper, you would have thought if we have to deal with idiotic one opperator only tickets, the surcharge would be on the express, not the other way round
Were you expecting there to be any logic in railway ticketing?
 

Phil from Mon

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Well, thanks for all these replies guys. Goes some way to explaining it, but as you say it is a daft situation.

Agreed. Passengers presented with two fares, one cheaper than the other, are naturally going to go for the cheapest. IIRC, when I bought my ticket from the TVM at Bangor last weekend, the fare it initially presented me with was the Avanti fare - fortunately I knew better and selected the "show other fares" option. Had I not researched the fares beforehand, I could well have selected that fare, and been caught out.
I always use the ticket office in Bangor, the staff there are superb
 

Belperpete

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It is ridiculous how the faster service it cheaper, you would have thought if we have to deal with idiotic one opperator only tickets, the surcharge would be on the express, not the other way round
But isn't that what privatisation was all about - creating competition between operators. In theory it benefits the passenger by giving cheaper fares. In practice, it has created confusion.
 

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