Blackpool lines- decline and fall

[Merle Haggard]

Another snippet is that the L&Y initially planned to quadruple the coast route before deciding to build the direct one, and the land was acquired. Some of the overline bridges might have had arches for the extra tracks but I'm not sure.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Uneconomic? Really? Fully depreciated, cheap, and unlike today they were simple coaches. Motive power would come from the freight side, idle at weekends, likewise the crews. The coaches possibly didn't even have heating - not too important when the loco couldn't supply steam heat anyway.

Beeching went on about uneconomic excursion stock, without grasping that the figures produced for their "costs"were a fiction. BR costing methods were crude, simply take all the maintenance costs for labour, parts, cleaning etc, and divide them by the total number of vehicles to get a cost per vehicle. Of course, the vast majority of this effort went on the all-day main line stock, but the figures weren't collated down to that level, it was easy, and to an extent advantageous to hide actual effort differences in the averaging.

They had to be stored under cover and maintained to main line standards. That was not cheap.
Most locos on excursions to Blackpool were passenger or mixed traffic - but a few 8Fs and an occasional 9F plus a very occasional 4F appeared ( I travelled behind one from Preston to Blackpool - at a very slow speed ). Although pre WW2 the L&Y used superheater 0-6-0s that was not the case in the late 1950s and early 1960s. And don't forget running and preparing and disposing was labour intensive and costly especially at overtime rates. But I agree some extra trains could be run using commuter train carriages but not the extra ones provided on summer weekends and bank holidays.
Steam heating was not used in summer.
Beechings was a very bright and experienced manager and without doubt he was capable of grasping the available information and analysing it. But costings were crude because the Railway only had crude cost information with little ability identify exactly where the money went. But to pretend that a few outings a year on cheap excusions got anywhere near covering all operating and maintenance of coaching and locos is not credible. And why would Beeching want ruin his professional reputation by massaging already unreliable figures ?
It may well have been a public service to enable trips to the seaside for the working population on a nationalised railway justified as a national policy but that fell apart when mass car ownership started and comfortable motor coaches were available.
Also the bad passenger experiences for the once a year rail traveller discouraged regular train travel unless necessary for or to get to work. For example my family experince of being stuck on a suny high summer day non corridor North Wales holiday train as it crawled from signal to signal was the last straw for my parents. Travelling forty miles to relations in West Yorkshire from then on was done by two slow service buses rather than by train -although that had been pretty dire when a change at Todmorden was required.

 

[Merle Haggard]

They had to be stored under cover and maintained to main line standards. That was not cheap.

Certainly around here surplus sets of coaches were stored in sidings at wayside stations, or in a long line on a disused branch (e.g. the ex SMJR between Towcester and Roade - visible from the A508) When required for seasonal use the maintenance consisted of the annual (?) pad oil and basic exam & oil.

Coaches were not generally under cover. At Northampton sets only went into the carriage shed for diagrammed cleaning - the sets in daily use when idle were stabled in the 'Riverside' sidings or on the up side.

 

[Taunton]

They had to be stored under cover and maintained to main line standards. That was not cheap.

No. I don't think GWR B-sets ever saw the inside of a covered shed from when they were built in the 1930s until withdrawl in the mid-1960s.

And what maintenance? On the one hand we are told the vehicles had costly main-line maintenance, on the other hand they were dilapadated, never cleaned, etc. Which is it?

 

[Bevan Price]

The RCTS did a Fylde Coast Traffic Survey on 5 September 1959, between about 07:00 and 20:30, and published the results as a card-covered booklet.
There were 68 passenger arrivals at Blackpool Central, of which 32 had used the Marton line.
There were 34 arrivals at Blackpool North, some of which were shuttles from Fleetwood or Poulton
There were 23 arrivals at Fleetwood, most being shuttles from Blackpool North or Pouiton.
Motive power was mostly Black 5 4-6-0s, and ex-LMS 2-6-4T, other classes including 5MT 2-6-0s (Crabs & Stanier), Jubilees, Royal Scots, 8F 2-8-0s, 9F 2-10-0 and ex-LNER B1 4-6-0s.
A few 6 car dmus (probably Class 104) worked services from Manchester Victoria.

There were fewer departures than arrivals at Blackpool Central, because some were excursions for the illuminations, and would return home after the end of the observation period.

Three outbound freights originated from Wyre Dock (Fleetwood) in the late afternoon, to Manchester Victoria (fish); London Broad Street (vans) and Healey Mills (vans, with a WD 2-8-0)

 

[Cloud Strife]

Closure of the Marton Direct line did enable the M55 and its extension Yeadon Way to bring car and coaches directly to the Tower. Blackpool probably though it was doing the right thing in embracing the motor-age, but better road access did mean day-trips and short stays became the norm instead of traditional holidays. The irony is that a lot of the central site remained undeveloped - although that is about to change - apart from the police station (now closed) and the courts.

I think arguably, it was the right decision. The move away from longer holidays was going to happen regardless, and the M55/Yeardon Way did help encourage people into Blackpool. The issue with Blackpool is, IMO, that it never really transitioned away from 'holiday resort' to 'entertainment destination'. In fairness, most of the UK seaside resorts struggled and still struggle with this.

I used to go there quite a lot as a child on Sundays as my parents were fond of a particular prize bingo place, and I remember as a 10 year old that it had no real sense of purpose.

What's surprising for me is that the area of the old Blackpool Central was never really developed.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What's surprising for me is that the area of the old Blackpool Central was never really developed.

Was the former Blackpool Central railway station site initially earmarked just for use as a giant car/coach park? (And would I be right in saying it's now about to be extensively redeveloped some half a century or so later)?

 

[WesternLancer]

Was the former Blackpool Central railway station site initially earmarked just for use as a giant car/coach park? (And would I be right in saying it's now about to be extensively redeveloped some half a century or so later)?

see my post #16 for your 2nd question as I think the link in that covers that.

 

[tbwbear]

Was the former Blackpool Central railway station site initially earmarked just for use as a giant car/coach park?

I am not sure if Blackpool Council had already earmarked a use for the site when they obtained it in 1964, others may know more, but things might have gone slower than they had hoped.

The original 1903 station terminal building was converted to a bingo hall after the trains stopped and it was only demolished aound 1970. The site it occupied was eventually developed (in the 1970s) into the "Coral Island" amusement centre which, I think I am correct in saying, still stands?

Whether anything other than a car park was ever planned for the area beyond the station, I don't know. But the area that the station building itself stood on was redeveloped. The perception in the town in the 1970s seemed to be that we had lost the station and gained Coral Island, certainly not a good trade off for most people !

I am not sure if anyone has ever looked into the financial aspect of the whole Blackpool Council / BR / Coral Island development thing. It would be interesting to know if the council lost or made money on the thing.

NB - The toilets that used to be between the station concourse and the excursion platforms stood a lot longer, in the car park, into the 80s I think.

 

[Andy873]

I am not sure if anyone has ever looked into the financial aspect of the whole Blackpool Council / BR / Coral Island development thing. It would be interesting to know if the council lost or made money on the thing.

Maybe you could drop in to the council and explain your research.

I know they have lots of historical details and of course copies of minutes of meetings, with a little help you might find lots of answers there?

Andy.

 

[WesternLancer]

NB - The toilets that used to be between the station concourse and the excursion platforms stood a lot longer, in the car park, into the 80s I think.

I saw that toilet block pictures on the disused station website entry for Central with a pic dated 2005 - so if that is the same thing it lasted a fair bit (no idea if still there of course)

Disused Stations: Blackpool Central Station

 

[Andy873]

Just going back to the question of lifting the line...

As @Springs Branch mentioned about notices may hold a clue, I found out one piece of my puzzled was solved by a weekly notice:

I was trying to find out when the final Eastern end of the loop line was singled, a contact of mine told me his late friend remembered seeing it mentioned in a weekly notice - the line was singled over two weekends in June 1969.

Just another example of how you might find some more details.

 

[Bevan Price]

I saw that toilet block pictures on the disused station website entry for Central with a pic dated 2005 - so if that is the same thing it lasted a fair bit (no idea if still there of course)

Disused Stations: Blackpool Central Station

The Blackpool Central public toilets - reputedly the largest in UK - were closed, along with thousands of others, when councils were forced to cut expenditure due to reductions in funding to councils from Westminster. Most of the other public toilets in Blackpool were closed at about the same time.

 

[Springs Branch]

The Blackpool Central public toilets - reputedly the largest in UK - were closed . . . .

Speaking of toilets, and not entirely off topic – I remember some years ago as a youth needing to pay a visit to the Gents at the eastern end of the Manchester-bound platforms at Bolton Trinity Street.

Standing against the porcelain, I was impressed by the lavish lavatorial provisions around me, presumably built by the L&YR. The cavernous, empty, echoing room was in finest Victorian style – fully tiled, with lots of brass and copper fittings and occasional hissing, trickling cisterns. There was modest provision of cubicles for those with more serious business to conduct, but the other three long walls were filled entirely from end to end with a huge number of urinals.

I remember thinking “how many people catching a train to Manchester would need to do a wee at the same time?” Then the penny dropped – obviously this capacity was needed when returning excursions from Blackpool or Southport pulled in of an evening, with some punters having travelled in non-corridor rolling stock after consumed ample refreshments at the seaside (and maybe hadn't had time to use those facilities at Blackpool Central before departure). Not sure if the Ladies were equally lavish, or how generous the gents are at Bolton today.


In similar vein, I once read an account of life as a goods shunter in the Bury area. The youthful protagonist was on his first evening shift in the yard when one of the old hands recounted lesson no. 1 – “if a passenger train pulls up unexpectedly at signals in the dark, stand well back”. Chances are it was a returning excursion and a good fraction of compartment doors would be flung open and a number of warm, acrid streams would emanate from the train!

 

[Ashley Hill]

I saw that toilet block pictures on the disused station website entry for Central with a pic dated 2005 - so if that is the same thing it lasted a fair bit (no idea if still there of course)

Disused Stations: Blackpool Central Station

They were replaced a few years later by a modern pay on entry unisex toilet block.

 

[randyrippley]

The Blackpool Central public toilets - reputedly the largest in UK ...........................

Morecambe Prom station has in the past claimed the record for the largest urinals in the UK
The similarities between Blackpool and Morecambe are remarkable, with Morecambe ultimately losing three termini (Promenade, Euston Rd, Northumberland St), all being replaced by a single two platform minimalist station. Morecambe also lost its direct route (electrified from Lancaster Green Ayre).
The similarities are even stronger in the rumours in both cases at the time that Beeching & Co had been "got at" by the roads lobby on the County Council: they wanted Greyhound Bridge in Lancaster for road use, and the Marton link for motorway use. The report decision on Blackpool was reversed after publication, while those "in the know" claimed Beeching changed the Morecambe decision prior to publication following a council "intervention".
Lancashire County Council at the time were very much in the "pro roads" lobby, and were the country's lead in motorway building. It would be logical for them to push for road conversion wherever possible. There were allegations of dodgy dealings, never proved or even investigated, and now after all this time impossible to substantiate.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

Whilst there may be something in the Greyhound Bridge story, I’m sceptical about lobbying for a motorway on the Marton Direct line as it was many many years before it was reused. Given the way rail traffic was changing, I can’t see the Direct line surviving under any circumstances.

 

[edwin_m]

The similarities between Blackpool and Morecambe are remarkable, with Morecambe ultimately losing three termini (Promenade, Euston Rd, Northumberland St), all being replaced by a single two platform minimalist station. Morecambe also lost its direct route (electrified from Lancaster Green Ayre).
Keeping the Green Ayre route and closing the one via Bare Lane would have given Morecambe very awkward connectivity to everywhere except the route via Skipton, and even that would have needed the long and rather unremunerative section from Lancaster to Wennington (Wennington to Carnforth still being needed for freight).

Whilst there may be something in the Greyhound Bridge story, I’m sceptical about lobbying for a motorway on the Marton Direct line as it was many many years before it was reused. Given the way rail traffic was changing, I can’t see the Direct line surviving under any circumstances.

Getting back on topic, I agree with the inevitability of closure There were never any intermediate stations on the Direct line and apparently the only freight facility was the gasworks. This may have continued to be used after the advent of natural gas, but would not have required a rail connection. Both the north and the south route did and still do generate significant intermediate traffic.

However, given the predeliction for motorways in Lancashire I do wonder if there was a plan to use it for that purpose soon after closure, which just took some years to come to fruition. I've just found this link: https://web.archive.org/web/2006081...gov.uk/environment/historichighways/mam55.asp

In late 1964, an event which affected the westerly termination of the road (now referred to as the Blackpool and Fylde Coast Motorway) and its tributaries occurred. Blackpool Central Station and the railway line from there to South Station were closed. It was therefore proposed and agreed by Committee in February 1965 that an investigation should be carried out into the re siting of the westerly part of the road in the county area so as to fit in with the new proposals of Blackpool Corporation for the construction of a new road along the disused railway line to join the existing Blackpool-Preston road (A583) a short distance on the Blackpool side of Peel Railway Bridge. By September, they were happy enough to approve the submission of a draft scheme under Section 11 of the Highways Act 1959 to establish the line of the Blackpool Motorway.

 

[WesternLancer]

The Blackpool Central public toilets - reputedly the largest in UK - were closed, along with thousands of others, when councils were forced to cut expenditure due to reductions in funding to councils from Westminster. Most of the other public toilets in Blackpool were closed at about the same time.

They were replaced a few years later by a modern pay on entry unisex toilet block.

Thank you both for the updates on that image link I posted. I assume that building is no longer there then.

 

[Ashley Hill]

No,the new toilets stand on their site.

Photo Blackpool Gazette.

 

[WesternLancer]

No,the new toilets stand on their site.
View attachment 113158
Photo Blackpool Gazette.

Thanks! Phase 1 of the Central Station site redevelopment...

Or maybe all that was achieved so far by the council since the site post station closure...

 

[randyrippley]

Thanks! Phase 1 of the Central Station site redevelopment...

Or maybe all that was achieved so far by the council since the site post station closure...

A bit p***-poor as redevelopments go

However, given the predeliction for motorways in Lancashire I do wonder if there was a plan to use it for that purpose soon after closure, which just took some years to come to fruition. I've just found this link: https://web.archive.org/web/2006081...gov.uk/environment/historichighways/mam55.asp

James Drake, the key man in all those decisions

 

[john prytherch]

The November 1964 closure of Blackpool Central rather than North of course seemed barmy to all who prefer to travel by rail, but I think the concept of closing Blackpool Central and using the site of its approaches all the way from Blackpool South, including the site of the carriage sidings, engine shed &c. as a huge park for road motor vehicles (both coaches and cars) originated with the growing awareness that a much higher proportion of Blackpool's visitors would travel by road and need somewhere to park all those vehicles. Some contributors to this thread have mentioned this.

There is a local Act, I think a Blackpool Corporation Act, of the 1930s (sorry I cannot remember which year) which made extensive provision for a deal between the LMS and the Corporation under which Central would have been closed and all its approach route etc. been transferred to the Corporation for use as a huge charabanc park etc. The Act may have confirmed an Agreement, but my memory of it is now hazy. There may have been provision for the Corporation to pay for some improvements to North Station or to other railway facilities.

Unfortunately, not much local legislation before this century is available online and I am aware of that Act only because a copy of it happened to be included in an ad hoc collection put together by one of my former water industry employer's statutory predecessors, I think the former Fylde Water Board.

The scheme proposed by that local Act did not happen, as so many other things proposed at that time did not happen, because of the Second World War. I don't think it was revived in any way in connection with the 1964 closure.

 

[Gloster]

The November 1964 closure of Blackpool Central rather than North of course seemed barmy to all who prefer to travel by rail, but I think the concept of closing Blackpool Central and using the site of its approaches all the way from Blackpool South, including the site of the carriage sidings, engine shed &c. as a huge park for road motor vehicles (both coaches and cars) originated with the growing awareness that a much higher proportion of Blackpool's visitors would travel by road and need somewhere to park all those vehicles. Some contributors to this thread have mentioned this.

There is a local Act, I think a Blackpool Corporation Act, of the 1930s (sorry I cannot remember which year) which made extensive provision for a deal between the LMS and the Corporation under which Central would have been closed and all its approach route etc. been transferred to the Corporation for use as a huge charabanc park etc. The Act may have confirmed an Agreement, but my memory of it is now hazy. There may have been provision for the Corporation to pay for some improvements to North Station or to other railway facilities.

It might have been the Blackpool Improvement Act, 1935. The preamble refers to spending £108,000 on ‘use of certain lands for parking place.’

 

[pieguyrob]

No one has mentioned that the M55 and Yeadon Way use the old track alignment of the Marton extension. Maybe the council lobbied to have central closed so that the motorway takes the more direct route from Preston better serving all of the fylde coast and getting tourists straight into the centre of Blackpool.

(I used to love driving my taxi along there pretending to be a train!)

 

[chorleyjeff]

Speaking of toilets, and not entirely off topic – I remember some years ago as a youth needing to pay a visit to the Gents at the eastern end of the Manchester-bound platforms at Bolton Trinity Street.

Standing against the porcelain, I was impressed by the lavish lavatorial provisions around me, presumably built by the L&YR. The cavernous, empty, echoing room was in finest Victorian style – fully tiled, with lots of brass and copper fittings and occasional hissing, trickling cisterns. There was modest provision of cubicles for those with more serious business to conduct, but the other three long walls were filled entirely from end to end with a huge number of urinals.

I remember thinking “how many people catching a train to Manchester would need to do a wee at the same time?” Then the penny dropped – obviously this capacity was needed when returning excursions from Blackpool or Southport pulled in of an evening, with some punters having travelled in non-corridor rolling stock after consumed ample refreshments at the seaside (and maybe hadn't had time to use those facilities at Blackpool Central before departure). Not sure if the Ladies were equally lavish, or how generous the gents are at Bolton today.


In similar vein, I once read an account of life as a goods shunter in the Bury area. The youthful protagonist was on his first evening shift in the yard when one of the old hands recounted lesson no. 1 – “if a passenger train pulls up unexpectedly at signals in the dark, stand well back”. Chances are it was a returning excursion and a good fraction of compartment doors would be flung open and a number of warm, acrid streams would emanate from the train!

Indeed yes. The acrid stream I remember came from a chap in my compartment through the open window ( it would be ! ) as the train stood waiting for access to the junctions at Kirkham.

Certainly around here surplus sets of coaches were stored in sidings at wayside stations, or in a long line on a disused branch (e.g. the ex SMJR between Towcester and Roade - visible from the A508) When required for seasonal use the maintenance consisted of the annual (?) pad oil and basic exam & oil.

Coaches were not generally under cover. At Northampton sets only went into the carriage shed for diagrammed cleaning - the sets in daily use when idle were stabled in the 'Riverside' sidings or on the up side.

That's not as I remember around Preston. There were covered carriage sidings were at Lostock Hall but I don't recall any others covered or uncovered - but I could well be wrong on that.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Closure of the Marton Direct line did enable the M55 and its extension Yeadon Way to bring car and coaches directly to the Tower. No one has mentioned that the M55 and Yeadon Way use the old track alignment of the Marton extension.

No one has mentioned that the M55 and Yeadon Way use the old track alignment of the Marton extension. Maybe the council lobbied to have central closed so that the motorway takes the more direct route from Preston better serving all of the fylde coast and getting tourists straight into the centre of Blackpool.

Mentioned in post #54 by @Sir Felix Pole already! And in post #66 by @Cloud Strife for that matter (albeit slightly mis-spelt!)

 

[chorleyjeff]

The RCTS did a Fylde Coast Traffic Survey on 5 September 1959, between about 07:00 and 20:30, and published the results as a card-covered booklet.
There were 68 passenger arrivals at Blackpool Central, of which 32 had used the Marton line.
There were 34 arrivals at Blackpool North, some of which were shuttles from Fleetwood or Poulton
There were 23 arrivals at Fleetwood, most being shuttles from Blackpool North or Pouiton.
Motive power was mostly Black 5 4-6-0s, and ex-LMS 2-6-4T, other classes including 5MT 2-6-0s (Crabs & Stanier), Jubilees, Royal Scots, 8F 2-8-0s, 9F 2-10-0 and ex-LNER B1 4-6-0s.
A few 6 car dmus (probably Class 104) worked services from Manchester Victoria.

There were fewer departures than arrivals at Blackpool Central, because some were excursions for the illuminations, and would return home after the end of the observation period.

Three outbound freights originated from Wyre Dock (Fleetwood) in the late afternoon, to Manchester Victoria (fish); London Broad Street (vans) and Healey Mills (vans, with a WD 2-8-0)

That's how I rember it especially the exotic 6ers including K3s and 9Fs. But in addition were there not coal trains to Wyre Dock - vivid memory of WD 2-8-0 crawling across from the L&Y side to the Fylde lines up the short steepish slope N of the station with a long coal train presumeably from Yorkshire to Wyre Dock. Effectively stopped all other traffic for a few minutes. Observed from lineside on the civil engineers yard wall. Also would there have been traffic to/from the extensive chemical works, near Fleetwood, based on the locally sourced salt?

 

[Cloud Strife]

Actually, just looking on OSM, I have to say that there was a lot of sense in closing Blackpool Central. If you look at what replaced the line, you can see that not only the M55/Yeadon Way extension is much more useful, but that the closure also allowed for substantial amounts of badly needed car parking. Yes, the train (today) would make more sense, but it wouldn't have made sense with the 70s overseas tourism boom.

Blackpool seems to have correctly understood that the car would dominate tourism in the decades to come, they just didn't understand that tourism would also move on from shoddy bed and breakfasts and smoke-filled arcades.

 

[Merle Haggard]

That's how I remember it especially the exotic 6ers including K3s (..)

It was said at the talk I mentioned earlier that the K3s didn't need a banker over Copy Pit, about the only other loco. with this distinction was an 8F. Stronger than you might guess.