Bluebell extension to Haywards Heath via Ardingly

[paul1609]

I believe there are several heritage railways without volunteers possibly (I stand to be corrected..!)- Snowdon Mountain Railway, Paignton and Kingswear Railway, Vale of Rheidol.

From Brighton to the Bluebell Railway by public transport I recommend.... Brighton - Three Bridges by rail then by frequent bus (from outside the station ) to East Grinstead station (journey time about 25 minutes). Far quicker then rail via East Croydon..

Believe the Vale of Rheidol has had volunteers for about 20 years now.

 

[zwk500]

so no justification for a turntable at all really, reverse moves can run out of hours easily enough, 2 or 3 times a year.

agreed

Show me one without volunteers to make it happen ?

the reliance on of volunteers demonstrates how much these railways have to count the pennies.

But yes, as I said they are tourist attractions, and tourists goto the seaside.. but rightnow a visit to Bluebell means a trek uo to South London and back south.. perhaps 4 hours end to end travel just to reach it…. or a taking the car… or do a day trip to some other tourist place. Haywards Heath puts it in day trip from the seaside territory… and a Steam loco in the platform as the Brighton crowd roll past is the best free advertising.

Very few tourists go to the seaside now, especially in Sussex. Daytrippers from London go to the Sussex coast. If you live or are staying in London, and want a day out at the Bluebell, you'll go to East Grinstead.

 

[paul1609]

agreed

the reliance on of volunteers demonstrates how much these railways have to count the pennies.

Very few tourists go to the seaside now, especially in Sussex. Daytrippers from London go to the Sussex coast. If you live or are staying in London, and want a day out at the Bluebell, you'll go to East Grinstead.

Whilst thats true of the Brighton corridor the area of East Sussex east of Eastbourne over the border in to Kent has seen a major growth of the family staycation business in recent years and also the same can be said of West Sussex West of Worthing both the coast and the South Downs National Park.
I do agree however that Haywards Heath would be a white elephant for the Bluebell.

 

[alf]

It would be interesting to dig out the rail uk forum archive on building the Bluebell extension to East Grinstead.

I bet some posters described the planned extension to East Grinstead as a ‘white elephant’ or the equivalent as paul1609 calls the Haywa4ds Heath extension at post 93.
I use it often with my family & by myself.
There is a wonderful fan of footpath walks from all the Bluebell stations. Kingscote to Balcombe via rail enthusiast Jeremy Hoskin’s fantastic Gravetye manor is a favourite.

 

[30907]

Whilst thats true of the Brighton corridor the area of East Sussex east of Eastbourne over the border in to Kent has seen a major growth of the family staycation business in recent years and also the same can be said of West Sussex West of Worthing both the coast and the South Downs National Park.
I do agree however that Haywards Heath would be a white elephant for the Bluebell.

Agreed. Family (or other) staycations, typically self-catering even pre Covid, are not likely to be conveniently located for public transport.
There are exceptions to the rule - I managed to find two on decent bus routes last year!

 

[Brush 4]

The Ardingly extension would become the premier - ie only - museum for 3rd rail EMU's. Units would be moved there from the various unsuitable location limbos many are in now. Alf, 2 posts up hit the nail on the head about the pessimists who do seem to enjoy putting a dampener on things. We quickly forget all the achievements of the past. Digging out a deep cutting full of rubbish at Imberhorne, reinstating a bridge over the Midland main line at Loughborough, building a triangle at Norton Fitzwarren, rebuilding the lifted Swanage branch, part of the lifted Honeybourne line. The oldest one of all, the Ddault deviation to bypass a reservoir by building a spiral line around it. Reopening the Welsh Highland line from scratch. Even I can't remember all of them. How many achievements does it need before the miserable pessimists see the light?

 

[paul1609]

Isnt the Ddault diversion now run over by a maximum of 2 hopelessly uneconomic trains per day?

 

[Brush 4]

See, the pleasure in writing that....... It's the line to Blaenau Ffestiniog. I have no idea how many trains run along the route. It connects to the branch to Llandudno Junction, providing a through route.

 

[RichJF]

It would be interesting to dig out the rail uk forum archive on building the Bluebell extension to East Grinstead.

I bet some posters described the planned extension to East Grinstead as a ‘white elephant’ or the equivalent as paul1609 calls the Haywa4ds Heath extension at post 93.
I use it often with my family & by myself.
There is a wonderful fan of footpath walks from all the Bluebell stations. Kingscote to Balcombe via rail enthusiast Jeremy Hoskin’s fantastic Gravetye manor is a favourite.

Kingscote Station to the Vineyard & the reservoir is another

 

[32475]

The Ardingly extension would become the premier - ie only - museum for 3rd rail EMU's. Units would be moved there from the various unsuitable location limbos many are in now. Alf, 2 posts up hit the nail on the head about the pessimists who do seem to enjoy putting a dampener on things. We quickly forget all the achievements of the past. Digging out a deep cutting full of rubbish at Imberhorne, reinstating a bridge over the Midland main line at Loughborough, building a triangle at Norton Fitzwarren, rebuilding the lifted Swanage branch, part of the lifted Honeybourne line. The oldest one of all, the Ddault deviation to bypass a reservoir by building a spiral line around it. Reopening the Welsh Highland line from scratch. Even I can't remember all of them. How many achievements does it need before the miserable pessimists see the light?

We’ll said Brush 4! You’ve put it in a nutshell.

 

[zwk500]

The Ardingly extension would become the premier - ie only - museum for 3rd rail EMU's. Units would be moved there from the various unsuitable location limbos many are in now. Alf, 2 posts up hit the nail on the head about the pessimists who do seem to enjoy putting a dampener on things.

No heritage organisation will be able to afford a powered 3rd rail system. Even if they could get ORR permission (which they wont). So any 3rd Rail EMUs running on the Ardingly Branch will be hauled/batteries/something else. Which means they could run on any line. In addition the Bluebell don't really have siding space for lots of 4-car EMUs, they struggle with the amount of individual vehicles they have now!

We quickly forget all the achievements of the past. Digging out a deep cutting full of rubbish at Imberhorne, reinstating a bridge over the Midland main line at Loughborough,

Both of these were/are to get a mainline connection at all, which is very different to a 2nd connection.

building a triangle at Norton Fitzwarren,

Wasn't this built for operations on the NR Network (HOBC Maybe?)

How many achievements does it need before the miserable pessimists see the light?

I don't doubt the Bluebell can get to Ardingly. I also don't doubt that it's technically possible to run into HHE. I question the financial worth of doing so to the Bluebell, at a time when their items of considerable historic value (their pre-grouping Locos, Carriages, and Wagons) require urgent capital expenditure both on storage facilities and repairs. Especially at a time when lottery funding and heritage grants are likely to become rather scarce.

 

[WizCastro197]

Very few tourists go to the seaside now, especially in Sussex. Daytrippers from London go to the Sussex coast. If you live or are staying in London, and want a day out at the Bluebell, you'll go to East Grinstead.

Yes, Most are only pointed in the Brighton or Bournemouth direction or even Margate if you're pushing it.


Id go as far as to say that most tourists won't even realise that Heritage Railways exist or will not visit them as apart from the cool steam engines those from different countries, steam engines and old trains won't have a particularly large appeal on them.

 

[Ashley Hill]

No heritage organisation will be able to afford a powered 3rd rail system. Even if they could get ORR permission (which they wont). So any 3rd Rail EMUs running on the Ardingly Branch will be hauled/batteries/something else

There are two other threads on this,neither suggest a live 3rd rail and mine wants to explore the possibility of alternative sources of power for EMUs,possibly with the Ardingly branch in mind. Yes they could be run on any line,but Ardingly would be the only heritage line to have originally had 3rd rail. Epping & Ongar could do a similar thing with LU stock. I’m not going to start a debate on dummy 4th rail ,that’s been covered in the other threads.

 

[zwk500]

There are two other threads on this,neither suggest a live 3rd rail and mine wants to explore the possibility of alternative sources of power for EMUs,possibly with the Ardingly branch in mind. Yes they could be run on any line,but Ardingly would be the only heritage line to have originally had 3rd rail. Epping & Ongar could do a similar thing with LU stock. I’m not going to start a debate on dummy 4th rail ,that’s been covered in the other threads.

Plenty of lines run trains that never ran over them (the Bluebell has a GWR Dukedog, for one) and nobody seems to mind. None of the 3rd rail stock that actually ran on the Ardingly branch is preserved in working order, so a 4VEP at Horsted Keynes is just as anachronistic as it would be at Alton or Keighley!

 

[Brush 4]

The reason for doing all these things isn't relevant (GCR and Imberhorne) It is the achievement of major projects against the odds that is the point. Not sure about the origins of the WSR triangle, it could be for NR as well, but useful for the WSR.

If the units have to run with alternative power due to new regulations so be it. 100% accuracy is often impossible so, compromises have to be made. Alternatives to coal for steam locos are being investigated, not ideal but, needs must. A 4VEP on the Ardingly branch is incorrect but, appearing at Haywards Heath isn't. The only historically accurate answer there is to get it back on the main line. The 4SUB 4732 and 2BIL 2090 were used on the main line for a few years. The heritage movement will continue to do the 'impossible', no matter what some say.

 

[Irascible]

Battery power with a *dead* third rail get an authentic look should be workable, if having 3rd rail is that important.

 

[Spamcan81]

I can't see *any* heritage railway getting 3rd rail installed - the cost, safety concerns and cost of operating it would be prohibitive.

Does the Volks Railway not count as a "heritage railway" and that is third rail?

 

[stuu]

Does the Volks Railway not count as a "heritage railway" and that is third rail?

Grandfather rights. It wouldn't be allowed as a new system

 

[paul1609]

Its also 110 volts dc so performance on a 4 vep might be a tadge lethargic.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Plenty of lines run trains that never ran over them (the Bluebell has a GWR Dukedog, for one) and nobody seems to mind. None of the 3rd rail stock that actually ran on the Ardingly branch is preserved in working order, so a 4VEP at Horsted Keynes is just as anachronistic as it would be at Alton or Keighley!

Strictly speaking there'd be nothing anachronistic about a 4-VEP at Alton (though CIGs and CEPs would have been more common there). Only once it departed to the South would it be out of place.

 

[Bald Rick]

Strictly speaking there'd be nothing anachronistic about a 4-VEP at Alton (though CIGs and CEPs would have been more common there). Only once it departed to the South would it be out of place.

Definitely VEPs more common than anything else in my mid 80s experience. And no CEPs whatsoever back then!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Definitely VEPs more common than anything else in my mid 80s experience. And no CEPs whatsoever back then!

That's before my time, in the early 2000s it seemed that the lower density slammers were more common on Alton services, though VEPs were often on Farnham terminators.

 

[zwk500]

Definitely VEPs more common than anything else in my mid 80s experience. And no CEPs whatsoever back then!

That's before my time, in the early 2000s it seemed that the lower density slammers were more common on Alton services, though VEPs were often on Farnham terminators.

I can't remember back to the 2000's and wasn't around in the 80s so I'll bow to your collective wisdom.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I can't remember back to the 2000's and wasn't around in the 80s so I'll bow to your collective wisdom.

To be honest my sample size may not have been particularly representative, and in the final years of slammers on the South Western there didn't seem to be all that much of a pattern. I'd often use the Farnham and Alton services for a quicker run from Waterloo to Surbiton and it seemed to be pot-luck whether you'd get a VEP or a CEP. Sometimes you'd even get a BEP, which was a bit of a bonus because the former buffet area usually had seats available!