Boarding at first class doors

[Phil G]

I just wondered what the views are on passengers boarding first class carriages and walking through to standard. The reason I ask is I just attempted to board a GWR train today which was short formed and in reverse which I only discovered at the point it was arriving so I ended up by the first class door. I attempted to board the composite carriage to walk through to the standard and was prevented from boarding by thr train manager. I've been travelling on trains over 40 years and it's the first time I've ever heard of this. His subsequent arguing with other passengers and the resulting huge queue at the standard door delayed dispatch and given the circumstances seemed really pointless. Seems a bit of pragmatism would have been sensible.

 

[Muzer]

There's nothing illegal about doing so (the byelaws only prevent "remaining" in the first class area, with the implication (though I'm not a lawyer) that boarding there to pass through to standard is fine), but then again there's nothing to stop TOCs enforcing their own restrictions like this. I imagine it's intended to make the first class experience more pleasant and exclusive-feeling.

I agree with you that it's silly in this case at least. Maybe it's fine for the general case but not when there's going to be delay as a result.

 

[ArchieWoodbine]

Given it's a class 800 I presume, are you sure you weren't by the kitchen door immediately adjacent to the cab? I suppose they've an argument for keeping that area restricted.

I agree though, if it was a regular first-class door that's pretty petty of the train manager all things considered. Maybe he assumed people were going to stand in/take first class seats due to the short-formation?

I fear this thread could quickly descend into the old 'first class vestible' debate....

 

[Phil G]

Surprisingly it was a 7 car HST with 1.5 1st class on one of the busiest trains of the day. I had no intention of remaining in the first area but I guess others might have. He could have dealt with that once the train had departed.

 

[bramling]

I just wondered what the views are on passengers boarding first class carriages and walking through to standard. The reason I ask is I just attempted to board a GWR train today which was short formed and in reverse which I only discovered at the point it was arriving so I ended up by the first class door. I attempted to board the composite carriage to walk through to the standard and was prevented from boarding by thr train manager. I've been travelling on trains over 40 years and it's the first time I've ever heard of this. His subsequent arguing with other passengers and the resulting huge queue at the standard door delayed dispatch and given the circumstances seemed really pointless. Seems a bit of pragmatism would have been sensible.

In general terms: bear in mind first tends to be at the London end of a train. So at the terminus if everyone chooses to board through that door, those paying the most will be subject to a constant stream of people walking through, which as well as being annoying could also make it harder for them to reach facilities like the toilet, access to luggage racks, et cetera.

I can understand it's fair for latecomers to walk through first, but I don't really think it's unreasonable to expect everyone else to walk along the platform.

Obviously, in your case the train was reversed so perhaps it wouldn't be unreasonable for some leeway, but again this doesn't help with preventing those in first being quite reasonable irritated by a constant stream of people.

 

[The_Train]

I fear this thread could quickly descend into the old 'first class vestible' debate....

Has this been done before then? I was genuinely going to ask about that

Edit: to answer the OP, my opinion is that it was unnecessary of the TM to act in the manner he did. If he felt you'd done something wrong, surely he could have just had a quiet word and advised you against doing it again instead of making a scene in front of everyone

 

[trainophile]

Was he checking people’s tickets as they boarded then?

On some trains you have to pass through 1st to get to the toilet, if the only other one is out of use.

 

[grumblingalong]

At GA for Liverpool Street departures on MK3 stock the dispatch procedure dicatates people walking through first if they're boarding late, to avoid delay in departure.

Most just walk right through, maybe 1/100 stops in first but they're generally tourists who don't know better and move on happily.

Can only recall one incident in my 5 years of someone sitting in first arguing that I had invited them to do so by letting them board that door.

 

[big all]

so the train manager must have either announce "no second class passengers can use this door"
or asked to see your ticket ??

 

[yorkie]

Only a miniscule percentage of Guards would take issue in boarding in a sensible manner that reduces dwell time, but there are always one or two 'bad eggs' in most jobs unfortunately.

As with the Greater Anglia example, LNER do the same at King's Cross, so there is no rule against it.

 

[Bedpan]

I too was wondering about the first class vestibule situation, and doing a search doesn't immediateluy highlight anything (although I must admit I didn't look back far beyond the first page. ) Back in the 70s I would regularly stand in the corridor (the only corridor in general terms being alongside the first class compartments) on a 4-VEP if there were no standard class seats available, as did many other people, but I would think twice about that sort of thing, or indeed standing in a first class vestibule, nowadays.

It does seem strange that you get the odd train manager who doesn't seem at all interested in timekeeping. (By odd, I mean occasionlyl, for the avoidance of doubt). I went down top St Erth on an HST a few years ago and the train got later and later because of passengers getting off and just leaving the doors open behind them. This sort of behaviour seems completely ignorant to me, but I suppose that there may be the mitigating facctor that most trains have automatically closing doors nowadays. This meant that the train manager or platform staff had to walk down the train to close doors that had been left open before we could continue our journey. Why not make an announcement reminding people that they should close the doors themselves after getting off?

 

[Jonfun]

Unfortunately you can get a situation where the vestibule at the other end of First Class is full, which means that having boarded at one end, upon reaching the other end of the carriage there's nowhere for them to go through to. Of course, the correct thing they should do is return through the carriage, alight the train and access a quieter carriage via the platform or choose an alternative service. But some passengers instead choose to remain in First Class as they don't realise its against (or in some cases choose to ignore) the byelaws and get upset when charged the excess or reported for prosecution.

 

[NoOnesFool]

There was a thread a while ago, where someone allegedly alighted through the First Class doors at Liverpool Street with an STD and was Penalty Fared. In my view, First Class is for First Class ticket holders, and that includes vestibules and boarding through the First Class doors.

 

[infobleep]

There was a thread a while ago, where someone allegedly alighted through the First Class doors at Liverpool Street with an STD and was Penalty Fared. In my view, First Class is for First Class ticket holders, and that includes vestibules and boarding through the First Class doors.

What about trains where first class is in the middle of the carriage. Should passengers get off at the next station and get on again beyond the first class area, just to access another part of the train?

 

[infobleep]

Dare I mention a class 700. For passengers alighting, at say Brighton, the very back of the train is a standard class area, as is the door you can exit from. However for those boarding this area is first class. Would a first class paying passenger want a standard class passenger to alight from this door before they board or maybe even after they have boarded, if a passenger was slow to get off for whatever reason?

At this point I think it all rather silly.

 

[jon0844]

There was a thread a while ago, where someone allegedly alighted through the First Class doors at Liverpool Street with an STD and was Penalty Fared. In my view, First Class is for First Class ticket holders, and that includes vestibules and boarding through the First Class doors.

I'm all for the occasional block at the platform for people exiting through first class at terminal stations, to send a message to all those who walk through and fill the aisles to get out first that they shouldn't be in first class for the last 10-15 minutes of a journey, hindering those in first class from standing up and getting their things.

It would delay genuine first class ticket holders, but I reckon most would be happy if they knew what it was for. It wouldn't take long for the message to be sent out, and for people to fear being charged. Thus, you solve the problem and the only annoyed people haven't got a leg to stand on (even if some will no doubt moan on social media and use the word jobsworth a lot).

For boarding before departure it seems a bit less of a problem unless the train is so crowded that people risk being stuck in first class, which I expect is why a train manager may wish to stop people doing it on certain services. Given the fact that those who get stuck might get a nasty surprise financially, it's probably not a bad thing - although I doubt control would allow anything to delay the train.

 

[jon0844]

Dare I mention a class 700. For passengers alighting, at say Brighton, the very back of the train is a standard class area, as is the door you can exit from. However for those boarding this area is first class. Would a first class paying passenger want a standard class passenger to alight from this door before they board or maybe even after they have boarded, if a passenger was slow to get off for whatever reason?

At this point I think it all rather silly.

You'd obviously need to check the OpenTrainTimes site to see when the headcode changes in the berth, to see when it has changed to being the return service and now first class is declassified.

 

[NoOnesFool]

What about trains where first class is in the middle of the carriage. Should passengers get off at the next station and get on again beyond the first class area, just to access another part of the train?

They usually have all of the required facilities passing at-seat anyway, like on the 185s, which have an at-seat service throughout, the only exception I can think of is the accessible toilet.

 

[Alfonso]

Its possible, though not likely, that there was a VIP or some other heightened security risk that meant having lots of people walk through was not appropriate. I think there was a similar situation in Mid-Norfolk recently

 

[infobleep]

You'd obviously need to check the OpenTrainTimes site to see when the headcode changes in the berth, to see when it has changed to being the return service and now first class is declassified.

Very good point I'd not realised. I shall try and remember to do that in future.

I'm fairly certain I got out before the change over, although I've not actually checked!

 

[ejstubbs]

It wouldn't take long for the message to be sent out, and for people to fear being charged.

Charged what, for doing what? As was pointed out in the first reply to the OP, so long as standard class ticket holders don't remain in first class, no offence is committed. And in some situations standard class ticket holders have to pass through first class areas to get to other parts of the train.

 

[ValleyLines142]

This seems very jobsworth-like. I boarded an XC service at Piccadilly on Saturday night (first class at buffers end) and the train manager had no issues allowing passengers to walk through to standard class, even gesturing one customer to walk through if he wanted to save him running down the platform.

 

[jon0844]

Charged what, for doing what? As was pointed out in the first reply to the OP, so long as standard class ticket holders don't remain in first class, no offence is committed. And in some situations standard class ticket holders have to pass through first class areas to get to other parts of the train.

People commonly walk down 5 or 10 minutes before arrival to be first off a Virgin train, standing and often blocking the vestibule and aisle in the front coach. That's not walking through. That's definitely remaining.

I am all for people being made to buy a first class ticket if they do this. It's rather different if the train has arrived and they walk through then. People may very well disagree, especially those that do it.

 

[GodAtum]

On SWT 450s you might have to walk through 1st if the train splits. Also you can never tell where 1st will stop, so a lot of people will board and walk along the carriage.

 

[CC 72100]

I boarded an XC service at Piccadilly on Saturday night (first class at buffers end) and the train manager had no issues allowing passengers to walk through to standard class, even gesturing one customer to walk through if he wanted to save him running down the platform.

It's safer for a start - (on slam door stock) I'd rather people board at the first door from the blocks than continue down the outside and try to open doors that have already been closed and potentially put them on the catch in the process etc.

 

[jopsuk]

it's as if there's a bit of common sense in some situations, eg on units with 1st class mid-unit, or for last minute passengers, whilst also an approach taken to discourage it when there's plenty of time and to prosecute those that linger in the vestibules of all-1st coaches

 

[infobleep]

On SWT 450s you might have to walk through 1st if the train splits. Also you can never tell where 1st will stop, so a lot of people will board and walk along the carriage.

The question is, do people in first class want people consistently walking through or do they want it without people passing through.

I know it's not possible in some rolling stock such as the class 450 but that doesn't mea People don't have an opinion one way or the other.

 

[dk1]

Anglia installed a gate on the kitchen wall of the RFM which catering staff would shut & guard before Liverpool St to stop this practice on up peak time Norwich services.

Only time I remember issues with those boarding last minute down services via the only open door and then sitting with a standard ticket & not walking through until told was when we called at Shenfield to set down Southend Victoria passengers during engineering works but from what I gather passengers on this line a renowned for their attitude problems.

 

[Failed Unit]

They usually have all of the required facilities passing at-seat anyway, like on the 185s, which have an at-seat service throughout, the only exception I can think of is the accessible toilet.

I am other classes of EMU are the same but on the class 317 it is impossible to access the toilet from certain coaches without passing through first class. It has 2 toilets in the first class coach which is in coach 2 or 3 / 4 (depending on how the train is formed)

The problem definitely also exists on the 387 because of the stupid position of first on these trains. (Ok it isn’t really first but people still pay a premium)

 

[Failed Unit]

Anglia installed a gate on the kitchen wall of the RFM which catering staff would shut & guard before Liverpool St to stop this practice on up peak time Norwich services.

Only time I remember issues with those boarding last minute down services via the only open door and then sitting with a standard ticket & not walking through until told was when we called at Shenfield to set down Southend Victoria passengers during engineering works but from what I gather passengers on this line a renowned for their attitude problems.

I remember these on the mk4 coaches pre refurbishment. Down side is passengers couldn’t get to the guard but the buffet staff normally used to request the guard to come to the buffet if needed.