Bogie information and research

[Casper]

Hello everyone,

I'd be very grateful for any information people have on the following queries. Ideally pictures of some of the bogies highlighted in the text below. Those pics would be within a vehicle or even better removed from a vehicle for clarity etc. I doubt outside of RDDS anyone has drawings but if anyone does then that would be really really helpful. Or any dimensions of the wheelbase and bogie itself etc.

I'm researching the current DMU and EMU fleet and in particular the Class 150. I've been collating data from Platform 5 books, Ian Allen, Colin Marden, Brian Harescape and Angel and Eversholt websites. The following might be better presented as an Excel sheet (it is originally!) but here goes it as text...

I've collated the following - tried to make it as succinct as possible a summary but quite a bit of info so here goes

Class 150 uses BP38 and BT38
C153 P3-10 and BT38
C155 P3-10 and BT38
C156 P3-10 and BT38
C158 + C159 P4-4 and T4-4

First question: BP38 and BT38 are the same basic and related design?

Is the P3-10 completely different to the BP38? Naming convention change maybe but same design?

Is the P4-4 related to the BP38? T4-4 related to the BT38? At all??

-Anyone have pics of the BP38 and BT38 removed from a vehicle?-

I note the C150/158 and 159 are all BREL built (British Rail themselves then??).
C153/C155 are Leyand Bus and
C156 is Metro Cammell design and build


EMUs:

I note that the 507/508/313/314/315 are all related to the PEP 445 prototype and are family of related designs. All are listed as using the BX1 bogie. Data I've seen doesnt distinguish between powered or trailer bogies. All are just called BX1. So two versions with the same name? I also note this series of EMUs adopted driving motor at each end configurations (as an aside).

A BR research document states the BX1 as equal to the BT38. Different name for the same design in different EMU or DMU rolling stock then? Can one therefore assume that if the BT38 is related to the BP38 in general design and dimensions and since the BX1 is noted as the same as the BT38 then the BX1 is equally related to the BP38?

-Anyone have pics of the BX1 powered bogie and trailer bogie? Powered one is more interesting. Ideally removed from a vehicle. Or any other pics or drawings?-

The line in the BR doc is about a prototype lightweight bogie for the C154 prototype and simply states it is proposed as a "replacement to the current Class 154 bogie namely the BT38 (BX1)"

A paper written by one of the engineers who worked on the C210 DEMU prototype notes it used BP20 and BT13 bogies and that paper has the comment that "the BT13 is nearly identical to the BX1).

So BX1 = BT13 = BT38 then?? (and all related to BP38 as well then?)

Are all bogies of the 507/508/313/314/315 DM powered? All 4 axles are powered?


I note the Class 150 is based on the Mark III coach structure

and that there are a series of Mark III coach based EMUs too, namely the:

C455 - using BP27 and BT13
C456 using P7 and T3
C442 using P7 and T3

As above, are the BP27 and P7 and the BT13 and T3 the same design but a name change or completely different designs?
also

C317 uses BP20 and BT13
C318 uses BP20 and BT13
C319 uses P7-4 and T3-7
C320 uses P7-4 and T3-7
C321 uses P7-4 and T3-7
C322 uses P7-4 and T3-7

I also note that apart from the C456 the C455, C442, C317, C318, C319, C320, C321 and C322 all use motor trailers within the unit (just as aside point really).

In those mid-unit motor trailers are a both bogies powered? Are therefore all 4 axles in the motor trailer powered?

BP27 is different how to the BP20? Are these related to the P7 and P7-4 at all?

BT13 = T3 = T3-7 as well??

Also from above BR doc notes the BT13 = BX1 and another doc notes the BX1 = BT38 as well

I also have a note the bogies in the in the C317, C455 and C442 are larger than the usual "series 3" bogies. Not sure what series 3 refers to but a comment is that they are larger due to having headstocks with brake gear on.

I presume that applies to the whole Mk III structure based EMUs listed above

Is the wheelbase longer or is it the overall length due to the headstock with brake gear on. Is that just a bar mounted across the end of the bogie?

Anyone have any pics of the BP27, BP20, P7 and P7-4 removed from a vehicle per chance? Wondering what brake gear is mounted on this headstock exactly

Given all these relationships and that BP38 is related to BT38 = BX1 = BT13 that reason I'm asking all this is that therefore could a powered BX1/BP27/BP20 be installed in a C150 replacing the BP38

Are these all a related family of designs then?

Thanks!!!!

 

[DarloRich]

and what would like all that for?

 

[43096]

I also note that apart from the C456 the C455, C442, C317, C318, C319, C320, C321 and C322 all use motor trailers within the unit (just as aside point really).

What is a "motor trailer"? Do you mean a non-driving motor?

Amazing how many people don't know the basic terminology:
Driving - a vehicle with cab and driving controls.
Motor - a vehicle that provides power for the train (either diesel engine and/or traction motors).
Trailer - a vehicle that does not provide power for the train.
It follows that a vehicle cannot be both a motor and a trailer.

So using your example Class 455, these are formed Driving Trailer - Motor - Trailer - Driving Trailer, whereas a Class 458/5 is Driving Motor - Trailer - Trailer - Motor - Driving Motor.

 

[coppercapped]

Firstly 43096 has clarified the nomenclature for rolling stock.

Very briefly - the BX1 bogie was the designation of the new all-welded 'H' frame design with secondary air springs and disc brakes designed for use under the prototype PEP stock. (Just to confuse matters there were originally three slightly different designs tested, BP6, BP7 and BP8, but eventually the one with air-bag secondary suspension was selected for future use). The first production trains, the Class 313, for the GN electrification used this basic bogie but with some detailed changes and it was re-classified as the BT13.

More detailed changes and the bogie was named the BP3 series, for the motor bogies, and the BT3 series for the trailer bogies. This became the standard bogie for practically all multiple unit trains until the Electrostar and Turbostar trains went out of production. Various suffixes were used to designate detailed differences, for example whether the power bogies carried traction motors or a final drive gear box for the hydraulic transmissions or whether yaw damper brackets for speeds in excess of 75mph were present or not. Other detailed differences covered the placements of steps or tripcocks and so on. The general dimensions of all these bogies, wheelbase, wheel diameter, etc. is the same.

The Class 158 and 159 trains used a different design called the T4 bogie, but it was not perpetrated in for later multiple unit designs.

I'm not sure off-hand but the BP2 and BT2 may have been heavier duty unit for use under the Class 210 dmu prototypes.

The PEP stock and derivatives used riveted aluminium body panels. By the time the St. Pancras - Bedford electrification was being planned it was determined that costs could be reduced by using Mk 3 coach design principles in a 20 metre long coach with sliding doors at 1/3 and 2/3rds (approximately) of the coach length. All multiple units subsequent to the 317 used this structure, or variants of it, until the Class 158 and 159 which used extruded aluminium body panels.

 

[Casper]

Hello all,

Thanks for the replies.

@ Darlorich - I'm currently researching the DMU and EMU fleet trying to get up to speed on the history and spec. Especially the PEP and Mark III coach based EMU designs of the era coinciding with the Class 15x

@43096 Thanks for the terminology correction

@ coppercapped - Thank you, that's very useful information. The various sources of info I have on the Class 445 PEP prototype lists it have having BT5 or Mk6 or F-type 64305 bogies but being a prototype and as you say using "one off" designs I suppose that tallies too with the BP5, BP6 and BP8 designation too then

Do you have any more info on the detailed changes made to the BX1 design to lead to the BT13?

Any one got any pics of the BX1 they can share especially removed from a vehicle so the whole design can be seen?

The BP3 and BT3 are therefore the parent type of the BP38 and BT38 of the Class 150? The P3-10....is that the same as the BP38 too then? Or at least an evolution of the same family?

This BP3 and BT3 family thus takes you all the way to the Class 171 DMU then?
(being evolved from the Turbostar 165 and 166 which used the P3-17 and T3-17). The 168 to 171 using P3-23 and T3-23.

With the Electrostar being the 465 and 466 and using P3-16 and T3-16 I see the Bombardier Electrostar (357, 375, 376, 377, 378, 379, 387) all using the P3-25 and T3-25

Or does the BP3 and BT3 design stop with the end of production of the Turbostar 165 and 166 and Electrostar at 465 and 466 and not with the classes which evolved from it?

I've previously researched the DMU fleet especially the Class 15x but was surprised to see how related so many of the EMUs are.


Very useful info Coppercapped re the general dimensions, wheelbase, wheel diameter etc being the same for the BP3 and BT3 families.

Is my understanding correct that the driving motors of the 507/508/313/314/315 have both bogies powered and all 4 axles per driving motor powered?

For the 455/456/442/317/318/319/320/321/322 non-driving motors they have both bogies powered per NDM and thus all 4 axles per NDM powered too?

Re the 455, 317 and 442 having larger bogies due to headstocks with brake gear mounted here, anyone have any info on what is mounted here or pics? I note these bogies have disc brakes on the inner side of the wheels for example

thanks so much

PS I don't mind sharing the Excel sheets I've made to summarise the various books I've used for this info. If that's of interest/helpful to anyone.

 

[Casper]

Forgot to add the IMechE paper on the Class 210 DEMU notes it as having BP20 and BT13 (BX1) bogies

 

[coppercapped]

One of the prototype bogies used under the PEP stock - sorry don't know which designation - had a primary suspension similar to the BT10 bogie under the Mark 3 stock. That is the axles were located by a swinging arm with the pivot being towards the centre of the bogie's side frame. The swinging arm projected past the axle box and a coil spring was located between this extension and the bottom of the bogies frame, a vertical hydraulic damper was connected in parallel with the spring. The ends of the frame curved down outboard of the coil spring to locate a Panhard rod to locate the ends of the swinging arms laterally.

The later bogies under the Class 313 and onwards located the swinging arms by chevron rubber packs inserted between the tops of the axleboxes and the bottom of the side frames. The chevrons also located the axleboxes laterally so the bogie frame extensions were no longer needed and the ends of the 'H' frame were cut short.

The Class 165 and 166 were never classified as Turbostars, they were known as Thames Turbos and were a derivative of the electric Networker family. The BP3 and BT3 bogie design ('Series 3') was used up to the end of production of Bombardier's Class 387 and Class 171 trains.

 

[43096]

Is my understanding correct that the driving motors of the 507/508/313/314/315 have both bogies powered and all 4 axles per driving motor powered?

Correct.

For the 455/456/442/317/318/319/320/321/322 non-driving motors they have both bogies powered per NDM and thus all 4 axles per NDM powered too?

With the exception of the 456, those classes have both bogies/all four axles of the motor coach powered. The Class 456s have the inner bogie of the Driving Motor powered, so (using the standard nomenclature) the wheel arrangement of a 456 is 2-Bo + 2-2.

 

[Helvellyn]

The Southern E-Group is a good resource with features on all EMUs that have operated on Southern metals. You'll also get pictures of bogies, e.g. Class 442 as here - http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class442_3.html

Also the Southern Electric Group have some more detailed features on certain classes here - http://extra.southernelectric.org.uk/features/rolling-stock/index.html