BoJ at intermediate stations on regulated Off-Peak tickets

[jkdd77]

I've recently received a response from the Department for Transport concerning the time restrictions that apply when a 'regulated SVR/SSR' [which happens to permits BoJ] is "started short" or "broken and resumed" at an intermediate station which is not a "London station" for the purpose of fares regulation. The relevant letter is available on request by pm, subject to redacting of my personal details.

Generally speaking, regulated SVRs/SSRs must be valid at weekends, and after 1030 on weekdays, except that TOCs may impose evening restrictions between 1500 and 1900 on journeys from certain "London stations", defined for the purpose of "fares regulation" to include the likes of Stevenage, Watford, Reading and Luton.

The reply I received was that the DfT, following consultation with the relevant operators, and with their agreement, considers that a journey which is legitimately broken and resumed at an intermediate station which is not a "London station" (as defined for the purpose of "fares regulation") must be valid after 1030. This applies to all journeys on 'regulated SVRs/SSRs' regardless of whether the journey would have been prohibited if actually started from London on the same train, and regardless of whether the literal wording of the restriction code prohibits such a journey.

For example, the DfT takes the view that a passenger with a [CJ] London- Derby [regulated] SSR is able to resume their journey on day 2 after 1030 at Bedford even if the train in question departed from London St Pancras before 1030, or between 1500 and 1900. To decide otherwise would be contrary to fares regulation.

The DfT also states that the same principle of fares regulation applies to starting or resuming at Redruth on a [YX] London- Penzance SSR, or to starting or resuming at York on a [9F] [NSE station]- Edinburgh SSR, since both flows are "regulated flows". This means that, for example, a passenger with a [NSE station]- Edinburgh SSR would be valid to start short or resume at York even on a train which had departed London between 1500 and 1900.

There may be certain circumstances where this information comes in useful when advising on the validity of a (Super) Off-Peak ticket when used at intermediate stations.

 

[yorkie]

So, just to confirm, I could use a London-Penzance SSR on the 1503, break my journey at Plymouth (for the purposes of dropping an item off, for example), and I can then resume on the 1603 ex-London, from Plymouth, to Penzance? (a literal interpretation of the restriction text would suggest I'd have to let the London-Penzance HST go, and take the following XC Voyager instead)

Sounds very sensible.

 

[Paul Kelly]

That is very interesting, on two points.

Firstly, it seems to be saying that if the restrictions on a regulated fare contravene the requirements of fares regulation, the passenger is free to simply ignore them? I can imagine that leading to a lot of hassle in many situations, although it certainly sounds like good news. I had assumed that where restrictions contravened fares regulation, they still legally applied to the contract between the passenger and the train company or companies, and that any non-compliant restrictions were a matter for the DfT and the train company (whichever one set the fare) to sort out between themselves.

Secondly, it seems to be saying that restrictions that apply to a given train no matter where you board it are not allowed for regulated fares. These are very common, so this is quite big news.

 

[Haywain]

Without having the benefit of the OP's letter from the DfT to hand, I would interpret what he has written as being specific to resuming the journey on day 2, which is what the quoted East Coast 9F restriction very specifically refers to.

 

[jkdd77]

Without having the benefit of the OP's letter from the DfT to hand, I would interpret what he has written as being specific to resuming the journey on day 2, which is what the quoted East Coast 9F restriction very specifically refers to.

That's correct insofar as my original post quoted from an East Coast restriction code, although 'fares regulation' means that, in the eyes of the DfT, it is valid after 1030 anyway. I've now decided to edit my original post to remove the East Coast 0930 reference, as it is a distraction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So, just to confirm, I could use a London-Penzance SSR on the 1503, break my journey at Plymouth (for the purposes of dropping an item off, for example), and I can then resume on the 1603 ex-London, from Plymouth, to Penzance? (a literal interpretation of the restriction text would suggest I'd have to let the London-Penzance HST go, and take the following XC Voyager instead)

Sounds very sensible.

I believe so, although, as always, a passenger may encounter practical difficulties when using a ticket in an 'unexpected' manner.

My question to the DfT concerned a actual journey I made on the outward portion of a regulated '9F' SSR that was broken and resumed at Leeds en route to Edinburgh on the afternoon of '[week]day 1'; although part of their letter did seem to incorrectly assume that the journey was resumed on 'day 2', the 'fares regulation principles' appear to be the same.

I was told at the time by East Coast that I could not change at York onto any EC service that had departed King's Cross between 1500 and 1859 inclusive. I then sought to politely query this with the DfT, citing the relevant section of the fares regulation document.

My argument was that the Leeds- Edinburgh journey was a separate journey to the initial trip to Leeds, albeit made under the authority of the same ticket (after all, I could have simply started short at Leeds on the 9F ticket to Edinburgh, regardless of the wisdom of doing so). I then suggested that, since the *actual* journey made on a regulated London- Edinburgh SSR was from Leeds to Edinburgh, it followed that the wording of the fares regulation inserted into the franchise agreements meant that it had to be valid for all standard class travel on a permitted route after 1030 on the date of outward travel.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That is very interesting, on two points.

Firstly, it seems to be saying that if the restrictions on a regulated fare contravene the requirements of fares regulation, the passenger is free to simply ignore them? I can imagine that leading to a lot of hassle in many situations, although it certainly sounds like good news. I had assumed that where restrictions contravened fares regulation, they still legally applied to the contract between the passenger and the train company or companies, and that any non-compliant restrictions were a matter for the DfT and the train company (whichever one set the fare) to sort out between themselves.

Secondly, it seems to be saying that restrictions that apply to a given train no matter where you board it are not allowed for regulated fares. These are very common, so this is quite big news.

The DfT claim in their letter that they have consulted with the TOCs concerned before responding.

I am not legally qualified, but I understand that, where contractual terms are in breach of law or public policy, the said terms may be held to be void.

The usual health warnings apply about getting into a argument with barrier staff or onboard staff.

As I understand it, TOCs are free to set restrictions on a 'regulated fare' applying to a given train no matter where it is boarded so long as it does not contravene the requirements of fares regulation (i.e. must be valid for actual travel after 1030 except where the actual journey is made from a "London station", in which case evening restrictions may apply). For example, a London- Penzance SSR could be validly barred for westbound use from Redruth on trains prior to 1030, although FGW have apparently told the DfT that they will accept it after 0915 from Redruth, in line with local restrictions on the corresponding CDR.

I also gave an example of a '2V' SVR from Aberdeen to Penzance being used to travel westbound from Truro on the train which had been the 0820 from Aberdeen many hours before. This specific example was not directly addressed, but I understand from the general wording of the letter that this would be permitted, although, in any case, it is my view that the literal wording of this particular restriction code permits this anyway.

 

[jkdd77]

Apologies for bumping such an old thread, but I've now received a further reply from the DfT, confirming that:

1) the principles set out in my first post on this thread apply in all cases for "regulated SVR or SSRs" used correctly within the relevant validity period of the relevant portion of the ticket, and *not* merely to situations where the outward leg of a SVR or SSR is resumed on the second day of travel, and;

2) these principles applies even where the literal wording of the restriction code would forbid the journey. This is most likely to occur when a regulated long-distance SVR or SSR ticket, which permits BoJ, is used to travel from London to a 'non-London' intermediate station during late morning or early afternoon, and travel is then validly resumed during the weekday evening peak).

 

[34D]

Is it possible to request that copies of both letters could be sanitized of names/addresses, and then put up here?

Or at the very least, the exact words of both typed up, along with the exact questions asked?