Border protocols at "Schengen" borders

[StephenHunter]

Commonly called the Tränenpalast in DDR days too. The daily Forex requirement meant my family had large numbers of Eterna and Supraphon records.

But we're well off the subject of Edit: Schengen now.

I'm going to set up a separate thread on this, as it's worth continuing the discussion.

As for Schengen, I've never been subjected to any full check crossing the German Schengen borders by rail. Or indeed anything more than a glance at my passport.

 

[Chester1]

Frankly, sorry to say so, but the view from the continent=the other side of the North-Sea from your island since it left EU is that controls to enter there are much as you describe. PLUS that one needs a real passport-book, the trusty ID will not work anymore-probably as its unknown over there.
Controls like that were common when I went to UK/GB in whatever coach (long-dist. bus) after it had just come off the ferry in my younger years. Would probably take even more time as described here.
Having myself entered DE from NL at least 1/week last monthes on my DE-cheap monthly: was only once briefly asked to show some ID. I was wondering as to how young a lot of this GP=GrenzPolizei were looking. And how they could organize such many teams on the dozens of rail+road crossings into DE.

The refusal to accept national ID for entry into the UK was largely determined by the EU not the UK. The government was determined to not accept paper IDs after brexit and this is completely understandable. The EU commission has taken the position that distinguishing between paper and biometric national ID would amount to discrimination between EU citizens and would be a breach of the Trade and Co-operation Agreement. Since 2021 EU national IDs have had to adhere to a common standard and this means the last insecure national IDs (primarily issued by embassies and consulates) will leave circulation in 2031. I expect whoever is in power in UK in 2031 will then be prepared to accept EU national ID cards again. It is worth noting that Irish Citizens can enter the UK from outside the common travel area using passport cards. These are technically the same as the good EU national ID cards, the difference is legal (they are issued as as an extension of traditional Irish passports but can be used separately).

 

[riceuten]

The refusal to accept national ID for entry into the UK was largely determined by the EU not the UK. The government was determined to not accept paper IDs after Brexit and this is completely understandable. The EU commission has taken the position that distinguishing between paper and biometric national ID would amount to discrimination between EU citizens and would be a breach of the Trade and Co-operation Agreement. Since 2021 EU national IDs have had to adhere to a common standard and this means the last insecure national IDs (primarily issued by embassies and consulates) will leave circulation in 2031. I expect whoever is in power in UK in 2031 will then be prepared to accept EU national ID cards again. It is worth noting that Irish Citizens can enter the UK from outside the common travel area using passport cards. These are technically the same as the good EU national ID cards, the difference is legal (they are issued as as an extension of traditional Irish passports but can be used separately).

I think that's a charitable reading of the circumstances. There are numerous non-EU countries who accept EU ID cards for immigration purposes. I think whether the UK accepts ID cards post 2031 will very much depend on the political atmosphere at the time, and the views of newspaper/media proprietors. I'm not holding my breath.

More than 200 million potential visitors from Europe have ID cards but not passports. The government’s own forecast in its impact assessment was that the UK would lose 890,000 visits by European citizens each year, with a financial loss of £590m. The main beneficiaries of the UK imposing extra red tape were prospective language students were Ireland, Malta and the United States. The Institute of Tourist Guiding reported an almost total collapse of school group bookings after Brexit and Covid. Compared with 2019 they were 99 per cent down.

 

[Cloud Strife]

The government was determined to not accept paper IDs after brexit and this is completely understandable.

This could easily have been solved by simply requiring more detailed checks at the border to cater for the handful of people still using them.

More than 200 million potential visitors from Europe have ID cards but not passports.

Indeed. The UK is part of a tiny club that includes Russia, Ukraine and Belarus as not accepting EU ID cards, which is just bonkers. The only real threat came from paper ID cards, which could easily be dealt with by making it clear that anyone using it would be subjected to a full secondary check.

 

[riceuten]

Indeed. The UK is part of a tiny club that includes Russia, Ukraine and Belarus as not accepting EU ID cards, which is just bonkers.

I suspect it appealed to a certain type of voter

The only real threat came from paper ID cards, which could easily be dealt with by making it clear that anyone using it would be subjected to a full secondary check.

An immigration officer told me that corruption in two specific EU countries (Lithuania and Bulgaria) meant ID cards could be purchased (usually by Russians and Belarussians) for €1000 or so. I suggested at the time that perhaps then we don't accept ID cards from these countries? Hardly rocket science.

 

[duesselmartin]

This official border controll website still mentions ID cards.

Entering the UK

UK border control - passport checks, visas for entering, customs, transiting and layovers.

www.gov.uk

 

[signed]

This official border controll website still mentions ID cards.

Entering the UK

UK border control - passport checks, visas for entering, customs, transiting and layovers.

www.gov.uk

You can use ID cards if you are settled until 2025

 

[Chester1]

This could easily have been solved by simply requiring more detailed checks at the border to cater for the handful of people still using them.

That would mean treating people of some EU nationalities differently than others. Only a small number of EU member states issue paper IDs. The EU position is all or none. We are treaty bound to treat every EU nationality the same apart from Irish Citizens because of the Common Travel Area and Good Friday Agreement.

I suspect it appealed to a certain type of voter

An immigration officer told me that corruption in two specific EU countries (Lithuania and Bulgaria) meant ID cards could be purchased (usually by Russians and Belarussians) for €1000 or so. I suggested at the time that perhaps then we don't accept ID cards from these countries? Hardly rocket science.

That would be a clear breach of the Trade and Co-operation Agreement and prior to brexit it would have been a breach of EU law. The EU could in theory agree to waivers or even amending the treaty but it won't in reality. Labour doesn't seem to be interested in allowing EU ID cards to be used because they will have be briefed on fraudulent and fake IDs. A calculation has been made that the extra tourism from allowing EU IDs to be used isn't worth more illegal migration and other forms of illegal entry.

Border controls in Europe and even within Schengen are only like to get stricter over next 5 years.

 

[Roast Veg]

Quick glance at foreign passports on the number 11 bus into Liechtenstein from Feldkirch this week.

 

[Cloud Strife]

That would mean treating people of some EU nationalities differently than others. Only a small number of EU member states issue paper IDs. The EU position is all or none. We are treaty bound to treat every EU nationality the same apart from Irish Citizens because of the Common Travel Area and Good Friday Agreement.

No, there's nothing in the WA that would stop it from happening. Border controls weren't included in the WA, so it wouldn't matter. The UK could easily do it, just as the EU countries have subjected British citizens to more intense controls after Brexit.

An immigration officer told me that corruption in two specific EU countries (Lithuania and Bulgaria) meant ID cards could be purchased (usually by Russians and Belarussians) for €1000 or so. I suggested at the time that perhaps then we don't accept ID cards from these countries? Hardly rocket science.

ID cards are as secure as passports, so if they were fraudulently obtaining ID cards, they could just as easily obtain a passport.

 

[kkong]

Domestic flights only check when you have baggage in the hold.

I was once quizzed by a police officer stood at his podium at the exit of the security hall at Aberdeen Airport.

He was surprised when I told him I was flying to Inverness (hand baggage only).

 

[Re 4/4]

I hope this government looks again at ID cards - fairly pathetic to reject them based on tabloid prejudice

Me too - for people looking under 25 it's quite usual to be asked for ID, and then having to produce a provisional driving licence even if they have no intention to learn to drive. So we might as well admit that we have ID cards unofficially, you just can't go abroad on them.

 

[zero]

I'm not opposed to a passport card for the UK. The application process, and required information and documents to apply, should be exactly the same as for a normal passport, and the card should be treated just like a passport in all respects.

I would be opposed to an ID card that is mandatory to possess and/or carry around with you. I would be opposed to having information that is not currently on a passport being stored on an ID card.

The US and Ireland have passport cards. Americans can use them for some international travel. Until now, the reason US passport cards can't be used in Schengen is that passport booklets need to be stamped, but as stamping will stop soon (or not so soon if it gets delayed again), in theory Schengen countries could agree to recognise the US passport card.

Me too - for people looking under 25 it's quite usual to be asked for ID, and then having to produce a provisional driving licence even if they have no intention to learn to drive. So we might as well admit that we have ID cards unofficially, you just can't go abroad on them.

A post on a non-UK forum spurred me into thinking about how the ID function of the driving licence is completely separate from its function of proving your driving competency. In fact the only real function of a driving licence is to be used abroad!

In the UK, you don't need to carry the card when you drive in the first place, and some people still have paper licences that are not usable as ID anyway. Since the information is all held electronically, the card itself is only really useful as identification.

So there's no need for a provisional licence to look different to a full licence. You could just get the card as an ID card, and your provisional status would be stored on the database for police to look up; when you pass your test the database is updated but the card doesn't need to be. Having the card must remain optional unless you are driving, and it must be made clear that the fines for not updating the information only apply if you are driving.

 

[AdamWW]

A post on a non-UK forum spurred me into thinking about how the ID function of the driving licence is completely separate from its function of proving your driving competency. In fact the only real function of a driving licence is to be used abroad!

I don't know how common this there is but when I lived in the US you could get a non drivers ID. Just like a driving license except it didn't let you drive. I don't know if other states do/did that.

 

[rvdborgt]

I don't know how common this there is but when I lived in the US you could get a non drivers ID. Just like a driving license except it didn't let you drive. I don't know if other states do/did that.

That's IMO what an ID card is for. Passport card is just another name for ID card.

 

[riceuten]

ID cards to an extent would solve some of the more ridiculous requirements in proving, er, your identity. Anyone who has been a school governor or worked in a school/education background and needing a DBS check will find employers and schools will often impose their own ridiculous rules to prove your ID.

"One from either list, but not two from the same list" has caught me

Passport - check,
Driving licence - don't have one
Current account statement from my online only bank from no longer than 3 months ago - er, I have a PDF of it ("not acceptable"), I have a copy statement ("not acceptable, can't have "copy" written on it)",here's my Virgin current account statement (printed, no copy watermark) "not acceptable because it's not your main account". Here's my Bunq account statement "not acceptable as it's not a UK bank in sterling" (none of these requirements appear on the guidance)
European ID card - although it's actually on the list, "Not accepted as I don't speak German" (it's in English as well). Incredibly, it's got my (UK) address on it, but is not acceptable as proof of address!
Credit card bill - "Not acceptable as it doesn't have any transactions on it"

It's like the last 30 years hasn't happened

ID cards are as secure as passports, so if they were fraudulently obtaining ID cards, they could just as easily obtain a passport.

It's easier getting hold of ID cards because they are (in these countries anyway) issued by the local council.

 

[route101]

Is the stamping of the UK passports stopping at the end of the year?

 

[StephenHunter]

Is the stamping of the UK passports stopping at the end of the year?

It's supposed to when EES goes live, yes.

 

[Krokodil]

Is there a go-live date for EES yet?

 

[Cloud Strife]

I was once quizzed by a police officer stood at his podium at the exit of the security hall at Aberdeen Airport.

I had it once in Stansted, when I'd gone all night without sleep and with absolutely no baggage. I had absolutely nothing with me except my wallet, passport and phone, and I looked as if I'd been dragged through a hedge backwards. He asked me where I was off to, I told him "I'm going to sleep", and he got quite suspicious and started asking questions about my travel, my plans, etc. After the second question, I came to my senses and realised that it was highly suspicious, so I explained that I'd been out drinking till the last bus with some friends. I was obviously not very sober, so I showed him my boarding pass for later that day and explained that my plan was to go to the APV gates to get a few hours sleep before the flight. He laughed and waved me on, and needless to say I was out cold for a few hours after that.

ID cards to an extent would solve some of the more ridiculous requirements in proving, er, your identity. Anyone who has been a school governor or worked in a school/education background and needing a DBS check will find employers and schools will often impose their own ridiculous rules to prove your ID.

It really does make life so much easier. In Poland, we've got digital ID cards on our phones, so I don't even need to carry my ID card anywhere. If I need to prove my identity, I can use the digital ID card in person, or I can log into websites with it. The digital ID card was confirmed with my physical ID card and my fingerprints, so it's just as secure as any passport. No need for anything else, no gas bills, no credit card statements, just that.

It's easier getting hold of ID cards because they are (in these countries anyway) issued by the local council.

It's the same in Poland, but to get an ID card, you have to either get your parents to verify you (for the first one as a child), or as an adult, you need to bring a passport. If you don't have a passport nor an ID card, then you either need to take a parent or you need to bring something with your photo on that can be verified by the issuer, like a university ID. It's a surprisingly secure system, as they can check a large amount of data about you on the state databases, and if you can't verify your identity with them, the card won't be issued.

Is there a go-live date for EES yet?

The latest information I've received is that there's no date for the EES due to numerous concerns about how it will operate in practice. There are rumours that several Member States won't approve it until it's been tested on a wider scale, and the latest projected date is autumn 2025. It may come into service earlier, but I would expect ETIAS to launch first and then the EES to accompany it later.

 

[rvdborgt]

ID cards to an extent would solve some of the more ridiculous requirements in proving, er, your identity. Anyone who has been a school governor or worked in a school/education background and needing a DBS check will find employers and schools will often impose their own ridiculous rules to prove your ID.

"One from either list, but not two from the same list" has caught me

Passport - check,
[...]
European ID card - although it's actually on the list, "Not accepted as I don't speak German" (it's in English as well). Incredibly, it's got my (UK) address on it, but is not acceptable as proof of address!

I was already wondering, but the problem here is not proving your ID (a passport should already suffice for that) but proving your address. That could be solved by resident registration. Address can simply be proven with an extract from the resident registration. No ID card needed, although it wouldn't hurt (and it could have your address on it).

 

[Cloud Strife]

I was already wondering, but the problem here is not proving your ID (a passport should already suffice for that) but proving your address. That could be solved by resident registration. Address can simply be proven with an extract from the resident registration. No ID card needed, although it wouldn't hurt (and it could have your address on it).

The Finns do it by having an address registry, who then take responsibility for forwarding the change of address to a huge amount of other institutions and even private companies. It's a one-stop shop, and you can also obtain certificates online that show your current address.

We don't have addresses on our ID cards in Poland, but it's a two second job to get an extract of your registered address online. It's free to do, and if anyone has any doubts, you can obtain a paper certificate at any municipal office for a couple of quid.

Actually looking now, it's possible to log into the Finnish systems using my Polish ID card once you've registered yourself with the Finnish state. Or for example, if I want to log into the Polish tax system, I can use the ID card from any of the states in this screenshot.

 

[DanielB]

It's easier getting hold of ID cards because they are (in these countries anyway) issued by the local council.

Issueing by the local council is actually part of the security process to get one in the Netherlands. Your details are checked against the BRP (base registration of personal details) which is a record kept by the municipality where you're registred as permanent resident. They can find all kinds of details in there (parents name, place of birth, other family etc. to identify you). And when renewing you obviously just present your current ID.

Nowadays, with NFC enabled cards, they are used for much more identification purposes. For example when logging on to government websites containing sensitive data it's also part of 2-factor identification: you'll then have to enter your pin to access the DigID app, enter a code from the app on the website and then scan your ID to log on. (Though this is also possible with a code via SMS when you haven't added your ID card to the app)

 

[rvdborgt]

Nowadays, with NFC enabled cards, they are used for much more identification purposes. For example when logging on to government websites containing sensitive data it's also part of 2-factor identification: you'll then have to enter your pin to access the DigID app, enter a code from the app on the website and then scan your ID to log on. (Though this is also possible with a code via SMS when you haven't added your ID card to the app)

The Dutch passport is also NFC enabled, no ID card needed for those functions. We're getting a bit off-topic though...

 

[fandroid]

I'm due to pass over the German-Poland border and back by train on consecutive days next week. I'm hoping for no delays, especially on Wednesday as I have a flight booked from Berlin.

 

[cool110]

I would expect ETIAS to launch first and then the EES to accompany it later.

That won't be possible, since how can they possibly check ETIAS status without the EES database it's stored it

 

[riceuten]

Issueing by the local council is actually part of the security process to get one in the Netherlands. Your details are checked against the BRP (base registration of personal details) which is a record kept by the municipality where you're registred as permanent resident. They can find all kinds of details in there (parents name, place of birth, other family etc. to identify you). And when renewing you obviously just present your current ID.

Nowadays, with NFC enabled cards, they are used for much more identification purposes. For example when logging on to government websites containing sensitive data it's also part of 2-factor identification: you'll then have to enter your pin to access the DigID app, enter a code from the app on the website and then scan your ID to log on. (Though this is also possible with a code via SMS when you haven't added your ID card to the app)

This is the Netherlands, though. I would imagine the chances of purchasing a dodgy ID card are low

I'm due to pass over the German-Poland border and back by train on consecutive days next week. I'm hoping for no delays, especially on Wednesday as I have a flight booked from Berlin.

I would imagine that they have reverted to what they used to do, which is to get on the train in Poland and check passports/IDs thereafter. Or stop at the first German station and keep the doors locked until everyone has been checked (though this unlikely)

No ID card needed, although it wouldn't hurt (and it could have your address on it).

Ha, my German ID card has my (UK) address on it, though I have yet to encounter an agency that has accepted it as proof of address, even when this was theoretically possible

 

[fandroid]

I would imagine that they have reverted to what they used to do, which is to get on the train in Poland and check passports/IDs thereafter. Or stop at the first German station and keep the doors locked until everyone has been checked (though this unlikely)

The reality was somewhat mystifying. The DB Navigator app mentioned border delays but showed an unaltered timetable when I booked. Then on the day (before I travelled) it showed the departure from Frankfurt (Oder) to be delayed by 13 minutes. That already jeopardised my connection at Berlin Ostbahnhof. Anyway, we crossed the border on time but then were held outside Frankfurt for about 10 minutes. Pulled into Frankfurt where they still held us for that 13 minutes. No sign of border police in my carriage at any time. Then dawdled into Berlin where I finally got an airport bound train 45 minutes after I had hoped to. Got to Berlin BER 40 mins before flight departure (plane on time, of course!). Dashing madly, I was last on board 10 mins before scheduled takeoff.

 

[riceuten]

No sign of border police in my carriage at any time. Then dawdled into Berlin where I finally got an airport bound train 45 minutes after I had hoped to.

It does all seem to be for show. I’m years gone by. If there was a ‘person of interest’, they would have removed them and the train would have continued on its way.

 

[StephenHunter]

It does all seem to be for show. I’m years gone by. If there was a ‘person of interest’, they would have removed them and the train would have continued on its way.

Depends if they were the victim or the perpetrator of the predicted crime.

One would imagine that there might be some intelligence-based searching as well.