Borderlands line: alternatives to class 230 operation and any other strategies to improve reliability?

[Caaardiff]

Moderator note: Split from

Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line.

Since the Vivarail "master" Class 230 units thread has now been officially locked, I have opened this new thread where posting discussions can be made specific to this line.

www.railforums.co.uk

Transport fails Wales is one going around social media.
TFW remain committed to the 230 program and fail to acknowledge the issues experienced on the borderlands line.
The reality is because of the commitment to the 230s, they don't appear to want to put 2 150s back on the route.
Throw in the 175 debacle and unit shortages across the whole network, things continue to spiral out of control.

With more and more 197s coming online, and several 175s still going, I do wonder if eventually 2 150s will be freed up to cover the line, especially if a 230 improvement program doesn't prove successful.

 

[JetStream]

Travelled on my first 230 yesterday - whilst I quite like the interior, and think there's been more consideration given than the 197s, the bulk of the time lost seemed to be around Buckley (still no provision for the crawling pace it must do there) and from Shotton to Bidston - it seemed to lose an average of 5 minutes per journey (bearing in mind the 150s couldn't keep to time either - over ambitious timetable?!)

Personally, every other trip should end in Wrexham General rather than Central, to allow for some makeup time.

 

[TheSel]

... Personally, every other trip should end in Wrexham General rather than Central, to allow for some makeup time.

That would only assist with the timekeeping of one of the two units deployed.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

Wrexham Central is where a lot of local people need to travel to for shopping work and hospital it’s pointless missing that out. The 150 are fine on the route, not perfect but on the whole they have kept more or less to time and they keep running bar the odd fault or other incident such as bridge bash. The 230 isn’t the future, we are a number of weeks into their introduction now and they are as bad as ever just about doing half a day, yesterday was a shambles in the morning and then followed by constant late running until it was replaced at 1630. There have also been a number of incidents at weekends with trains not running and lots of confusion with the timetable and buses.

 

[Statto]

Sorry its not moaning, TFW make Arriva Trains Wales look proficient. TfW have managed to change the borderlands branding to Miseryrail in a 6 month period, a nickname well known in the Liverpool City Region when management did not have a clue. However the situation is much worse than when Merseyrail was known as miseryrail as you could possibly commute

Yep, it doesn't help Borderlines is an hourly frequency most of the day with trains taking around 55 minutes end to end journey time, any delays have a knock on affect.

I don't understand why TfW decided to convert the 230s from LU, D stock given how old they are & the issues they're currently having with them, & how much money that's already been spent on converting them, would have been better to stick with the more reliable 150s.

 

[rich.davies]

Can't the DFT take control of the line, in a operator of last resort kind of way or is such a thing not possible?

 

[Dai Corner]

Can't the DFT take control of the line, in a operator of last resort kind of way or is such a thing not possible?

No, because the train operations on the line are devolved to the Welsh Government. TfW are the 'operator of last resort' or, actually, the Welsh Government's preferred operator. The part in England is a bit of a grey area though.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I just still don’t understand what prompted them to take on a microfleet of 70s Tube conversions when the other option was five or so more 197s.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Yep, it doesn't help Borderlines is an hourly frequency most of the day with trains taking around 55 minutes end to end journey time, any delays have a knock on affect.

I don't understand why TfW decided to convert the 230s from LU, D stock given how old they are & the issues they're currently having with them, & how much money that's already been spent on converting them, would have been better to stick with the more reliable 150s.

The 150s can barely keep to time and if you wanted more 150s you would find there are none available !.

The age of the 230 vehicles is irrelevant. The actual problems seem to be with the new bits, the engines. Also the very tight timetable.

There are not enough 150s available. We really are staring at a DMU shortage in the UK. Think of all those Pacers (sorry I swore) that have been banished from the railways !. I suspect the only thing the 230s will be replaced with is busses.

Can't the DFT take control of the line, in a operator of last resort kind of way or is such a thing not possible?

I don't think that would make any difference, as others have said. What is needed is a train that can manage the tight schedule and not choke on Pollen !.

I just still don’t understand what prompted them to take on a microfleet of 70s Tube conversions when the other option was five or so more 197s.

I seem to remember it being said that the 197s would not be able to keep to time on the Borderlands route.

I remember it being said these diesel/hybrid 230s have very good acceleration. That was one of their strong points for routes with a tight schedule and not a high line speed. As a microfleet the mitigation was that the 230s can be maintained without the need for major facilities and so close to their sphere of operation. Still a microfleet though.

Compared to the 769s these diesel or hybrid 230s seem to have simpler problems to fix. They don't seem to sit down and sulk mysteriously. It seems it is down to a better filter needed to keep pollen out and the slow speed of the doors - ironically a problem they did not inherit from their D78 heritage !.

---

I do wonder if the aspirations of a clockface timetable are more trouble than its worth. What is the point of having trains running at the same time of the hour in the timetable if they actually cannot stick to the timetable. How about biting the bullet and make it an 80 minute frequency ?.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What is needed is a train that can manage the tight schedule and not choke on Pollen.

Is there anyone on this thread that has any knowledge of what Vivarail had been working on, prior to the company closure, in terms of suitable filters that would deal with pollen in the atmosphere.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Is there anyone on this thread that has any knowledge of what Vivarail had been working on, prior to the company closure, in terms of suitable filters that would deal with pollen in the atmosphere.

Not that I am aware of but apparently Pollen has been an issue with other trains. I would not rule out the possibility that TfW might be looking into solutions themselves.

Just conjecture but I suppose the severity could depend on where the air intake is. Perhaps it is low down (reasonable to suppose its on the surface of the engine raft). On other diesel trains it might be higher up. On other diesel trains it might be a bigger filter. I presume Ford Rangers don't suffer so much so begs the question what filter are they using for the same engine - it cannot be enormous ?.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

So cancellations galore from the start of rush hour today, and buses out again. Surely TFW need to put the 230s out of their misery until they are fixed. It is February since we had any form of a proper service. The North Wales Metro is a dead duck

 

[CaergwrleKen]

The last trip for the 230 was 1330 from Wrexham, it was about 20 mins late and not seen again. 150 was delayed by a trespass incident around 1400 but got back to time after the drop back at 1840.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

The last trip for the 230 was 1330 from Wrexham, it was about 20 mins late and not seen again. 150 was delayed by a trespass incident around 1400 but got back to time after the drop back at 1840.

So a train that cannot last half aday needs to be sidelined. Bring back the 150s. TFW have been stupid to think an unproven product can replace 150s that
at struggled with timings. Thank goodness the 175s off lease have been replaced with 150s of the borderlands.

 

[Caaardiff]

So a train that cannot last half aday needs to be sidelined. Bring back the 150s. TFW have been stupid to think an unproven product can replace 150s that
at struggled with timings. Thank goodness the 175s off lease have been replaced with 150s of the borderlands.

Everyone would agree with this, apart from TFW it seems.

 

[meld3]

So a train that cannot last half aday needs to be sidelined. Bring back the 150s. TFW have been stupid to think an unproven product can replace 150s that
at struggled with timings. Thank goodness the 175s off lease have been replaced with 150s of the borderlands.

More a case of £30m spent and rather than question who/why made that decision and look inept/corrupt, best to sweep under the carpet and pray they get them working.

Personally, I'd be looking through Vivarails bank accounts for bungs / holidays / cars / sweetners / off shore payments etc etc, because I cannot see anyone paying cash up front from a non-Tory Welsh Assembly for this tat without serious inducement.

A £100k Scottish motorhome is one thing, but this is a whole bigger level !!

 

[317 forever]

It would now seem to guarantee a more reliable service on this line of TfW retained a few 2-car 150, 158 or 175 types instead of these endless failed attempts to have the full service with 230s.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

158/175 are banned from the route. There was talk of using 197s but the crews i speak to say they wouldn’t keep time either as they are not suited to a slow speed stop start route. The 230 are being worked very hard today looks like the first one is only doing 3 trips, replaced later by another to do 1 trip. Meanwhile the 150 soldiers on working a full day and evening.

 

[MotCO]

A £100k Scottish motorhome is one thing, but this is a whole bigger level !!

and you can't park it in the mother-in-law's front garden!

 

[Anonymous10]

158/175 are banned from the route. There was talk of using 197s but the crews i speak to say they wouldn’t keep time either as they are not suited to a slow speed stop start route. The 230 are being worked very hard today looks like the first one is only doing 3 trips, replaced later by another to do 1 trip. Meanwhile the 150 soldiers on working a full day and evening.

Well that's the pembroke dock line up the caboodle stops ever 3-5 mins and 50mph max

 

[Dai Corner]

and you can't park it in the mother-in-law's front garden!

The motorhome was allegedly purchased from Party funds. The 230s were paid for by the taxpayer, which is much more serious in my book. I may write to Natasha Asghar MS, who is one of my regional representatives, the opposition Transport spokesperson and a member of the Public Accounts committee.

 

[robert thomas]

More a case of £30m spent and rather than question who/why made that decision and look inept/corrupt, best to sweep under the carpet and pray they get them working.

Personally, I'd be looking through Vivarails bank accounts for bungs / holidays / cars / sweetners / off shore payments etc etc, because I cannot see anyone paying cash up front from a non-Tory Welsh Assembly for this tat without serious inducement.

A £100k Scottish motorhome is one thing, but this is a whole bigger level !!

That's serious allegation to make with no evidence. Two first group companies have also purchased units,though with different means of propulsion. Are you suggesting that this also apllies to First?

 

[GC class B1]

That's serious allegation to make with no evidence. Two first group companies have also purchased units,though with different means of propulsion. Are you suggesting that this also apllies to First?

I would think had Vivarail continued operating they would have (and contractually been required to) resolved the problems and/or compensated TfW. TfW may well have acted in the best interests of the taxpayers.

 

[meld3]

That's serious allegation to make with no evidence. Two first group companies have also purchased units,though with different means of propulsion. Are you suggesting that this also apllies to First?

I said I would be looking FOR corruption, not that there IS corruption.

Its taxpayer money not shareholder money, and Govs are supposed to have robust procurement rules and recourse - there are plenty of HMRC laws where company failure results in the former Directors being personally liable, so why not in this case given a Gov quango did the purchase?

Heads have not yet rolled - do government Quango staff have some extra immunity ?

"If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its probably a duck" same as "If it looks like corruption and smells like corruption, its probably corruption".

But WA Committee seem happy to accept TfW saying the service is a success, nothing to see here, move along, La la La La La .....

 

[robert thomas]

I said I would be looking FOR corruption, not that there IS corruption.

Its taxpayer money not shareholder money, and Govs are supposed to have robust procurement rules and recourse - there are plenty of HMRC laws where company failure results in the former Directors being personally liable, so why not in this case given a Gov quango did the purchase?

Heads have not yet rolled - do government Quango staff have some extra immunity ?

"If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its probably a duck" same as "If it looks like corruption and smells like corruption, its probably corruption".

But WA Committee seem happy to accept TfW saying the service is a success, nothing to see here , move along, La la La La La .....

You have repeated your claim that there is "probably corruption" with absolutely no evidence. I I were you I would withdraw your comments before someone who was involved with the decision sees them and acts on them.

 

[meld3]

You have repeated your claim that there is "probably corruption" with absolutely no evidence. I I were you I would withdraw your comments before someone who was involved with the decision sees them and acts on them.

No, I said "if it looks like....and smells like....it probably is".
Big difference.

And thats exactly why we are where we are. Everybody can see something is very wrong with the amount spent on the emperors new clothing, but everyone is scared to say so.

But just in case there are any WA legal eagles who happen to be reading this trainspotters forum, who also know and can prove this was a totally above board, reasonable and fair price, I will withdraw my comments.
And if they make themselves known, I have some beans for sale that are not ordinary beans, mine grow into money trees, for a bargain price of just £30m. Liz Truss loved them.

 

[Skie]

I would think had Vivarail continued operating they would have (and contractually been required to) resolved the problems and/or compensated TfW. TfW may well have acted in the best interests of the taxpayers.

I think this hits the nail on the head. Vivarail going bust has shifted the risk onto TFW. They could have walked away and cut their losses, but at the point Vibarail went into administration it probably looked sensible to get the project over the last few hurdles.

Had they had a crystal ball and known how high those hurdles had been set, and that someone had snuck shark infested waters between them, they may have chosen a different option. They can still write-off the entire thing and shift to a different plan, but these things take time and money.

 

[Wyrleybart]

158/175 are banned from the route. There was talk of using 197s but the crews i speak to say they wouldn’t keep time either as they are not suited to a slow speed stop start route.

Are you suggesting that 197s cannot match the performance of 150s ? I find that difficult to believe. From what I understand, modern DMUs with six speed gearboxes can outperform Voith hydraulic drives in terms of acceleration. I have no doubt though that TfW are trying to squeeze a fifty five minute journey into an hourly clockface timetable, which will only work some of the time

The 230 reliability is not robust enough and after well over two years of "testing" they simple cannot cut the mustard. TfW need to bin them off and maybe just extend the 197 production line by three more. TfW will not ever save any face, so just scrap them and move forward.

 

[tomuk]

I just still don’t understand what prompted them to take on a microfleet of 70s Tube conversions when the other option was five or so more 197s.

They need to spend the money on fancy Stadler for the Valleys so need something as a stop gap pending doing a deal with MerseyRail to use the 777s. The VivaRail being green hybrids also ticked the 'innovation' box.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

Are you suggesting that 197s cannot match the performance of 150s ? I find that difficult to believe. From what I understand, modern DMUs with six speed gearboxes can outperform Voith hydraulic drives in terms of acceleration. I have no doubt though that TfW are trying to squeeze a fifty five minute journey into an hourly clockface timetable, which will only work some of the time

The 230 reliability is not robust enough and after well over two years of "testing" they simple cannot cut the mustard. TfW need to bin them off and maybe just extend the 197 production line by three more. TfW will not ever save any face, so just scrap them and move forward.

Or look for an alternative option and go for Battery 777 and shift the line to Merseyrail with 3rd rail fast chaging at stations it stops at, which are not live when trains are not there. 777V1 give commuter door opening for quicker exits and entry seen in underground stations

It would be good to run a 777 to Dee Marsh junction from Bidston as a trial