Borderlands Line - Wrexham to Bidston Closures

[parkender102]

I use this line fairly regularly and 3 weeks ago they started Engineering Works (mainly replacing Rails I think) so there was a planned closure for a week with Rail Replacement Buses in place of the normal Rail Service. Somewhat inadequate as a normal Hawarden to Wrexham train takes half an hour and the Rail Replacement Bus takes an hour. Thinking it surely should be finished by now I checked that the trains were indeed running again and saw a local news report that the trains have now been taken elsewhere to replace a shortage of trains on another line. Surely this can't be right - pinching trains from one line to leave no services on that line to use on another line with already operating services just to fill the gaps?

Absolute Madness.

Transport for Wales services week commencing 20 March

Transport for Wales (TfW) is advising its customers to check for the latest information before travelling as services continue to be impacted by train shortages and engineering work.

news.tfw.wales

 

[Krokodil]

TfW are down to about three 175s available per day, with about 17 diagrams to fill. Like it or not, busy mainline services are going to take priority over a loss-making rural branch line.

 

[parkender102]

Ah right so the Class 150's that run Wrexham - Bidston have been taken to stand in for the Class 175's that are out of service due to safety checks etc on busier lines. I did see a report of the misery people are enduring on the other lines that have the replacement Class 150's on instead of I assume the normal 3 or 4 coach Class 175's. That makes me think that there will be no service in the near future on the Borderlands line until they introduce the planned (refurbished?) new trains.

I'd argue that Borderlands line is not a rural Branch Line and is always well used when I've been on it. A regular link between Wrexham, Flintshire, Wirral and Liverpool and always large amounts of passengers including a lot of School Children who use it for their commute to school. I don't know the numbers but maybe compared to other busier lines it is in fact a 'rural Branch line'.

 

[185]

There should have been at least 1 of the 2 trains left running. There are no alternative trains like on other lines. Breathed a sigh of relief when the D-stock tube trains plan was abandoned, however noting all their Cardiff local services are running a full timetable truly shows up Transport for Wales bosses' contempt for people in North Wales and NW England.

• Core Valley Lines – reduced service on some routes. No services between Pontypridd and Merthyr Tydfil until Monday 3 April due to transformation work for the South Wales Metro.

Looking at RTT for the service today, I can't see any difference with Cardiff local services than from a normal day except for the 'extra capacity' train Newport to Crosskeys.

 

[Krokodil]

I'd argue that Borderlands line is not a rural Branch Line and is always well used when I've been on it. A regular link between Wrexham, Flintshire, Wirral and Liverpool and always large amounts of passengers including a lot of School Children who use it for their commute to school. I don't know the numbers but maybe compared to other busier lines it is in fact a 'rural Branch line'.

It's not exactly the Conwy Valley Line (6tpd) but it still sees a fraction of the traffic of the North Wales Coast or the Marches, and for much cheaper fares per mile (and that's just the passengers who are actually paying). Most of the stations (all bar Bidston/Neston/Shotton/Wrexham) see less footfall than some request stops in the country.

You could probably replace each unit diagram with a single bus, whereas the North Wales Coast frequently requires three full-sized buses to replace a single two-car unit.

Looking at RTT for the service today, I can't see any difference with Cardiff local services than from a normal day except for the 'extra capacity' train Newport to Crosskeys.

Some Treherbert services have been stripped out. Bear in mind that Treherbert alone is busier than any of the Borderlands line stations, if you only count the Exchange side of Wrexham General.

 

[parkender102]

I suppose it's synonymous of the rail industry at the moment. At one point we were told that the Borderlands Line was going from 1 Train Per Hour to new rolling stock (or refurbished) 4 Trains per Hour with a new station at Deeside Industrial Park, then this was reduced to 2 per hour and now we have no trains!

 

[aleph_0]

Some Treherbert services have been stripped out. Bear in mind that Treherbert alone is busier than any of the Borderlands line stations, if you only count the Exchange side of Wrexham General.

Just to emphasis for 185's benefit, when looking at RTT, some trains have been deleted from the system. So you might be not seeing trains cancelled on the Treherbert Line, but there have been services deleted, it is normally an every half hour service, there are several hour gaps (looks like today is a good day, I'm sure there were 1h30m/2h gaps last week). Plus, there are other services that have been cancelled on the Valley lines).

 

[Caaardiff]

The Class 230's should be introduced on the line in the next few weeks, which are dedicated to the Borderlands line. Class 197's will also be used for the 2tph additional services. So unless they go horribly wrong (A whole separate forum for that), then the service should be more consistent than relying on 150's.
Of course, many will believe it when they actually see it!

 

[DLAYKEGER]

Just to emphasis for 185's benefit, when looking at RTT, some trains have been deleted from the system. So you might be not seeing trains cancelled on the Treherbert Line, but there have been services deleted, it is normally an every half hour service, there are several hour gaps (looks like today is a good day, I'm sure there were 1h30m/2h gaps last week). Plus, there are other services that have been cancelled on the Valley lines).

Glad to hear people from Treherbert can still commute to work by train, I can't.

The reason your passenger numbers are higher is probably as you have a much frequent service.

Wrexham Bidston passenger number are probably poorer as it:

a) has had a rubbish hourly service (worse at night) at least since I was 16 when I used the service to college (36 yrs ago), with trains often turned around short at Shotton to catch up on delays, leaving 2hr gaps or more on the Wirral section,
b) people drive to the more frequent Merseyrail (every 10mins) services on Chester line (North Wales / Neston to Hooton, Heswall to Spital, Neston to Bromborough, etc),
c) it is always seems late as the turnarounds are too short (the train at Wrexham Central is timed to leave before it arrives),
d) failure to sell tickets / no ticket machines / can''t use online tickets if transferring on to Merseyrail / guards regularly don"t sell tickets or are too busy with doors to sell tickets,
e) numbers under reported (Heswall jumped 58k to 99k in a 2 year period) that sort of jump suggests serious under reporting for years.

If you commute to Liverpool you also get dropped off in the middle of nowhere at Bidston and if you miss your connecting train it adds 15+ mins to your journey, so it is quicker to drive to a more frequent Merseyrail Service at a Chester line station.

We can't rely on replacement buses as it take double the time, due to stations being away from main roads and arriving approx an hour late, plus they don't run any earlier buses, meaning you can't get to Liverpool for 8am

The South Wales based management also have a track record of neglecting us by cancelling a full days service to use class 150s in South Wales for Football / Rugby matches, that was until N Wales MSP complained.

Thank goodness they won't be able to nick our refurbished D trains that might actually start in service in early April, meanwhile the South Wales Metro is electrified and gets new trains , plus a £50m levelling up grant for a new Cardiff line.

We have a right to complain and if they just took 1 of our 2 trains away we could possibly still commute by public transport as we could check when the service would actually turn up, something you can't do with our replacement buses that don't run to time, and you have to guess where they will actually stop.

My wish is for Merseyrail Battery 777 trains to take over the line meaning South Wales based management can't neglect us for any longer. However I doubt it as our line is always under resourced. Our line maybe is s branch line, but is vital for students and elderly that can't drive

 

[Krokodil]

Wrexham Bidston passenger number are probably poorer as it:

You seem to have forgotten that the Rhondda has twice the population density as the area served by the Borderlands Line. The stations are also immediately adjacent to the population, thanks to how the mining communities grew along the valleys. Unlike in Flintshire where many stations are no where near the places they purport to serve, in true rural branch line fashion.

If you think that you've got it bad, spare a thought for the residents of the Conwy Valley. The line has spent long periods out of action after flooding, there's only six trains per day and the T19 bus that used to supplement it has been withdrawn. Weekday services have been cancelled over the last couple of weeks to free up a unit but even when they were booked to run on Sunday there wasn't a driver for one service and Network Rail didn't reopen the line until a couple of hours after the first one should have gone - train cancelled in platform with passengers already on it. Only two actually ran, the two at the least useful times of day.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

Yes all the lines in North Wales are poorly done by with the exception of the NW Mainline and the Welsh Assembly's lets link Cardiff to Holyhead via Wrexham service. I do feel sorry for the Conwy valley passengers as they have had a raw deal for years.

When it comes to bustitutes, a key difference is that many of the valley llines follow the main A roads so a rail replacement bus does not have to deviate far from main roads to get to the stations on route. On the Wrexham Bidston line, for much of the route it is completely different story. Taking the bus from Bidston it is usually 20 mins slower than the train to Heswall as the bus has to run via a mix of C roads and indirect A roads. Its the same to get to Neston, with a big deviation on C and B roads. It is similar for Shotton (via a stop start road), Hawarden, and a smaller deviation to Buckley. We then get a run of 6 stations closer to a main A road, but with all the deviatons between Bidston and Penyfford buses are running an hour late by the time it get to Wrexham and vice versa. That's what makes commuting to school and work pretty much impossible.

The Conwy line seems to run around 20mins longer with buses, and the odd buses running on the Treherbert line at the moment, seem to be timetabled run a similar journey time to the trains.

As such population should not just be the only factor when deciding which service to bustittute. They also need to take into account extended journey times and social needs. An hour long service taking 2 hours is not acceptable

 

[185]

An hour long service taking 2 hours is not acceptable

It's 57 minutes, by the book. The bus was observed taking 2 hours 47 minutes not so long ago. That's almost three times as much, and unlike other lines, with no alternative train service, it's simply not on.

 

[142 007]

Looks like its buses again all next week at the very least

 

[DLAYKEGER]

They are not even running trains this Sunday unlike last week, but maybe that was so they could not be accused of not running trains for a month on the line. Meanwhile in South Wales, the people of the Rhonda are getting told 50% off journeys when they get bustituton in the future. We can only hope the Class 230s operate from the 3rd April. Wonder why the don't try to run them on tthe 1st April (as per real time trains was showing last week) or was that a TFW rail early April Fool.

 

[frodshamfella]

I suppose it's synonymous of the rail industry at the moment. At one point we were told that the Borderlands Line was going from 1 Train Per Hour to new rolling stock (or refurbished) 4 Trains per Hour with a new station at Deeside Industrial Park, then this was reduced to 2 per hour and now we have no trains!

I thinks it's a complete Joke that TFW has got to this. Another example of the UKs disjointed railway system.

Glad to hear people from Treherbert can still commute to work by train, I can't.

The reason your passenger numbers are higher is probably as you have a much frequent service.

Wrexham Bidston passenger number are probably poorer as it:

a) has had a rubbish hourly service (worse at night) at least since I was 16 when I used the service to college (36 yrs ago), with trains often turned around short at Shotton to catch up on delays, leaving 2hr gaps or more on the Wirral section,
b) people drive to the more frequent Merseyrail (every 10mins) services on Chester line (North Wales / Neston to Hooton, Heswall to Spital, Neston to Bromborough, etc),
c) it is always seems late as the turnarounds are too short (the train at Wrexham Central is timed to leave before it arrives),
d) failure to sell tickets / no ticket machines / can''t use online tickets if transferring on to Merseyrail / guards regularly don"t sell tickets or are too busy with doors to sell tickets,
e) numbers under reported (Heswall jumped 58k to 99k in a 2 year period) that sort of jump suggests serious under reporting for years.

If you commute to Liverpool you also get dropped off in the middle of nowhere at Bidston and if you miss your connecting train it adds 15+ mins to your journey, so it is quicker to drive to a more frequent Merseyrail Service at a Chester line station.

We can't rely on replacement buses as it take double the time, due to stations being away from main roads and arriving approx an hour late, plus they don't run any earlier buses, meaning you can't get to Liverpool for 8am

The South Wales based management also have a track record of neglecting us by cancelling a full days service to use class 150s in South Wales for Football / Rugby matches, that was until N Wales MSP complained.

Thank goodness they won't be able to nick our refurbished D trains that might actually start in service in early April, meanwhile the South Wales Metro is electrified and gets new trains , plus a £50m levelling up grant for a new Cardiff line.

We have a right to complain and if they just took 1 of our 2 trains away we could possibly still commute by public transport as we could check when the service would actually turn up, something you can't do with our replacement buses that don't run to time, and you have to guess where they will actually stop.

My wish is for Merseyrail Battery 777 trains to take over the line meaning South Wales based management can't neglect us for any longer. However I doubt it as our line is always under resourced. Our line maybe is s branch line, but is vital for students and elderly that can't drive

This Lime really should go to Merseyrail, it would receive a half decent service then. I dont live near it, but when I have used it from Bidston, its always busy, but invariably late. I believe it used to go to Birkenhead North, where you would have move frequent connections to Liverpool, but ideally is should run into Liverpool like the other Wirral services.

 

[L401CJF]

It is a real shame the line has got to this point. It has a lot of potential, and I'd imagine loadings will go up when the frequency increases to every 30 mins.

As far as I know, the 230s are still set to enter service on Monday 3rd April. Last I heard it was to be 1x230 diagram for the time being.

 

[robert thomas]

I thinks it's a complete Joke that TFW has got to this. Another example of the UKs disjointed railway system.


This Lime really should go to Merseyrail, it would receive a half decent service then. I dont live near it, but when I have used it from Bidston, its always busy, but invariably late. I believe it used to go to Birkenhead North, where you would have move frequent connections to Liverpool, but ideally is should run into Liverpool like the other Wirral services.

Remember that the link to Lime Street is subsidised by Welsh taxpayers

 

[DLAYKEGER]

Remember that the link to Lime Street is subsidised by Welsh taxpayers

That is a completely different line, this is a discussion about the Borderlands Line.

By the way the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority put millions into reinstating the Halton Curve so TFW could run trains into Liverpool, plus TFW benefit from customers buying tickets from cities and town in England such as Chester, Shtewsbury, Leominster, etc. As such subsidy goes both ways

 

[Krokodil]

I believe it used to go to Birkenhead North

Go back in time and it used to go to New Brighton. The stubs of the chord still exist at both ends, though there's a missing bit in the middle. Go back even further and the terminus was Seacombe.

 

[jamesst]

Go back in time and it used to go to New Brighton. The stubs of the chord still exist at both ends, though there's a missing bit in the middle. Go back even further and the terminus was Seacombe.

The Bidston junction chord? Totally gone at the New Brighton end, replaced by a siding at the West Kirby end.

 

[frodshamfella]

That is a completely different line, this is a discussion about the Borderlands Line.

By the way the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority put millions into reinstating the Halton Curve so TFW could run trains into Liverpool, plus TFW benefit from customers buying tickets from cities and town in England such as Chester, Shtewsbury, Leominster, etc. As such subsidy goes both ways

I believe the Halton Curve service isn't running currently either.

 

[Krokodil]

Not even a replacement bus, just ticket acceptance with Merseyrail. It would be quicker to walk for some of the journeys involved.

 

[142 007]

TFW journey check has changed from saying no service until the weekend, to simply say service is suspended until further notice, same applies to Conwy Valley line

 

[Envoy]

The people responding here would find ITV Wales ‘Sharp End’ 27 March very interesting at it dealt with transport issues with particular mention of north Wales. You can view it here:>

https://www.itv.com/walesprogrammes/tags/sharp-end

"Is the scrapping of road building a bridge too far for North Wales? We found out on our A55 road trip".

 

[childwallblues]

Reading the above comments there is no doubt that TfW is treating North Wales differently. Is the shortage of 175s as a direct result of the takeover of Chester Depot by CAF? If so what arrangements has TfW made for the continuing the servicing of the 175s? Someone somewhere is not doing their job.

 

[Caaardiff]

Reading the above comments there is no doubt that TfW is treating North Wales differently. Is the shortage of 175s as a direct result of the takeover of Chester Depot by CAF? If so what arrangements has TfW made for the continuing the servicing of the 175s? Someone somewhere is not doing their job.

The above comments are on a topic specifically discussing a North Wales line, so of course it's going to appear that way.
In reality TFW is trying to consolidate routes as best to free up units to cover the majority of the 175 fleet being out of action.
Cardiff Valleys services have been reduced, and although frequency is higher than many other TFW routes, so is the footfall.
There are still many on the day cancellations affecting South and West Wales, and Valleys services due to lack of units.

Reductions have been done on Blaenau and Liverpool routes to free up 197's specifically on North Wales routes, as that's the only place they can currently work.
150's and 158's are covering marches routes meaning reduction in capacity on Birmingham services, as well as the temporary plan of turning at Wolverhampton. Most South Wales - Manchester & Holyhead services if not Mk4 are only 2 car, and very cosy.
Other routes in South Wales can't be cut as they are covered by fleets that can't work elsewhere (769/231/170's)

This will give you more information on the 175 issues
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tfw-175-shortages.242300/page-19#post-6143256

Short version is checks were made after 3 fires, work is needed, mainly surrounding engines/radiators that require parts that aren't easily available.

 

[Llanigraham]

And plenty of alterations to the service on the Cambrian so they can release units to help elsewhere, so this certainly isn't an anti North Wales thing.

 

[jaigee]

Go back in time and it used to go to New Brighton. The stubs of the chord still exist at both ends, though there's a missing bit in the middle. Go back even further and the terminus was Seacombe.

I travelled from Seacombe to Wrexham on it years ago!
Showing my age here.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

The above comments are on a topic specifically discussing a North Wales line, so of course it's going to appear that way.
In reality TFW is trying to consolidate routes as best to free up units to cover the majority of the 175 fleet being out of action.
Cardiff Valleys services have been reduced, and although frequency is higher than many other TFW routes, so is the footfall.
There are still many on the day cancellations affecting South and West Wales, and Valleys services due to lack of units.

Reductions have been done on Blaenau and Liverpool routes to free up 197's specifically on North Wales routes, as that's the only place they can currently work.
150's and 158's are covering marches routes meaning reduction in capacity on Birmingham services, as well as the temporary plan of turning at Wolverhampton. Most South Wales - Manchester & Holyhead services if not Mk4 are only 2 car, and very cosy.
Other routes in South Wales can't be cut as they are covered by fleets that can't work elsewhere (769/231/170's)

This will give you more information on the 175 issues
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tfw-175-shortages.242300/page-19#post-6143256

Short version is checks were made after 3 fires, work is needed, mainly surrounding engines/radiators that require parts that aren't easily available.

That is all very well documented, but when the rail replacement due to geography take double (and ocasionally almost 3 times) the train should take, that should also be accounted for. If they just took one of our class 150s off the Borderland line, I could still commute, albeit by changing work hours. With the 100% bus service it is not feasible. Meanwhile S Wales Valleys are showing a largely good service on the majority of routes. It's more annoying bustition on many of those routes would not be double the time, but you might need extra buses. I feel the pain of covering core routes is not being shared equallly between South and North based on the route status

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I travelled from Seacombe to Wrexham on it years ago!
Showing my age here.

After reading this thread, I just did some googling to find where Seacombe station was. It does seem from Google maps that this is one old line that has been completely obliterated. Interesting bit of history.

Incidentally, the Seacombe station wikipedia page states:

Traces of the immediate approach to the station can be found at the rear of the supermarket car park in Church Road

But looking on Google maps, I can't find any such road in Seacombe. Anyone know if this entry is correct? (There's a Church Crescent but it doesn't have a supermarket on it)