Boris Johnson is a liability.

[EM2]

Aha, we actually agree then. If face covering is a result of a twisted interpretation of a religion it definitely should be criticised and ridiculed.

If it is the result of person A insisting that person B wears an item because of person A's own religious view that person B does not share, then I agree.
If it is person B's own decision, or that they agree with person A's view, then I do not.

 

[Bromley boy]

Because people should be free to wear whatever they want, for whatever reason they want (caveat: as long as that reason is not to cause distress or upset, e.g. SS uniform, KKK robes).

But the point is that the burqa is an instrument of oppression, not of freedom. Yet here you are arguing that women should have the “right” to wear said instrument of oppression.

Can you not see the inherent conflict in that?

 

[EM2]

It’s their interpretation of a text. That’s not evidence.

That’s like saying that most Christian scholars and priests don’t advocate women wearing a veil in church, yet millions of conservative Catholic women worldwide do it.

It doesn’t make the conservative Catholics “wrong” nor does it suggest that they aren’t doing it because of an ultra conservative doctrine. That’s exactly why those women are doing it.

Are those Catholic women forced by anyone to wear a veil in church, or is it their own decision?

 

[EM2]

But the point is that the burqa is an instrument of oppression, not of freedom.

You say that it's an instrument of oppression. Many Muslim women do not agree.

Yet here you are arguing that women should have the “right” to wear said instrument of oppression.

Can you not see the inherent conflict in that?

People have a choice. If that is what they want to wear, why should my opinion have any bearing on the matter? I won't buy Hugo Boss clothes, because they made uniforms for the SS, but I wouldn't dream of telling someone else that they shouldn't.

 

[AlterEgo]

Are those Catholic women forced by anyone to wear a veil in church, or is it their own decision?

I don’t know and wouldn’t be so presumptuous to claim to have the answer. Nor will I just go on Google and find the first source that agrees with me and post it as some sort of evidence. That’s not how you have a debate.

 

[EM2]

I don’t know and wouldn’t be so presumptuous to claim to have the answer.

But you are happy to presume so for Muslim women?

 

[Bromley boy]

You say that it's an instrument of oppression. Many Muslim women do not agree.

So why were the women of Aleppo burning their burqas, then?!

People have a choice.

Many don’t.

 

[Bromley boy]

But you are happy to presume so for Muslim women?

You seem happy enough to to presume for them.

 

[AlterEgo]

But you are happy to presume so for Muslim women?

Please have a look at my posts. All I’ve done is explain that some women are coerced into wearing it and some are not. I would have thought such an observation was obvious.

I specifically said:

the minority of Muslim men who enforce the wearing of the niqab.

and on your assertion that it was the woman’s choice, I said:

Sometimes it is, and sometimes it is not

Will you disagree that some - a minority - of Muslim women in this country are indeed coerced into wearing it?

Whether a woman is wearing it by choice or not, I don’t like it, it doesn’t encourage community cohesion, it doesn’t fit with the values of the society I recognise, and I feel quite comfortable with both living my life around people dressed so I couldn’t recognise them and also enjoying the right to say I dislike that.

 

[mmh]

It's really interesting watching people tie themselves up in knots over this to show they're not prejudiced.

That it's Boris Johnson is largely irrelevant, supporters of both parties have long agreed he's something of a "chancer"

It was interesting to see earlier in the thread someone wonder if "hasidic jew" hair should be banned.

Haredi would probably have been a more modern word to use, but that's nitpicking.

I think it's perfectly acceptable to criticise any group that doesn't want to integrate and wants insular "communities" at odds with the people around them.

No doubt in the current world that makes me both racist and anti-semitic. I might have to dig out my kippah tomorrow (I'm not Jewish, I wore it at a friend's wedding)

 

[EM2]

So why were the women of Aleppo burning their burqas, then?!

Because they had a choice.

 

[EM2]

You seem happy enough to to presume for them.

No, I have just done some reading.

 

[EM2]

Please have a look at my posts. All I’ve done is explain that some women are coerced into wearing it and some are not. I would have thought such an observation was obvious.

Some non-Muslim women are coerced into wearing miniskirts, or stockings and suspenders, or no underwear, or similar outfits, by emotionally controlling men.

Will you disagree that some - a minority - of Muslim women in this country are indeed coerced into wearing it?

I have to disagree, because I do not know. But if it is the case, is that a reason for it to be banned?

Whether a woman is wearing it by choice or not, I don’t like it, it doesn’t encourage community cohesion, it doesn’t fit with the values of the society I recognise, and I feel quite comfortable with both living my life around people dressed so I couldn’t recognise them and also enjoying the right to say I dislike that.

You have the right to say that. But that doesn't mean that you have the right to dictate what people can and cannot wear, if it is not worn deliberately to cause alarm or distress.

 

[EM2]

and on your assertion that it was the woman’s choice, I said:

Sometimes it is, and sometimes it is not

The woman's choice I referred to there was the woman's choice to not drive or to have a male chaperone.

 

[AlterEgo]

Some non-Muslim women are coerced into wearing miniskirts, or stockings and suspenders, or no underwear, or similar outfits, by emotionally controlling men.

No doubt at all that happens, and as a society we’re pretty good at pointing out how unhealthy that is. Feminism is a very strong movement in the West, and women enjoy truly enormous amounts of freedom compared to women in most parts of the Islamic world.

I have to disagree, because I do not know.

If you don’t know then you don’t know - how can you disagree based on ignorance? Surely it’s obvious that some women are coerced into wearing the niqab in the same way you point out that many Western women are coerced into wearing things they might not like. Unless perhaps you ascribe a higher level of morality and justness to conservative Muslim men, in that it cannot possibly be true that any one of them might pressure their wife into wearing a niqab. (PS you posted a link earlier which contained countless tales from Muslim women who testified they were coerced, be careful when picking your sources, especially when you don’t bother to read them).

You have the right to say that. But that doesn't mean that you have the right to dictate what people can and cannot wear, if it is not worn deliberately to cause alarm or distress.

Not sure why you’ve said that. I was explicit and plain in explaining:

Boris Johnson doesn’t support criminalising covering one’s face. And nor would I.

 

[Bromley boy]

Because they had a choice.

Yet again you’ve missed the point. They were doing it because that was a choice they hadn’t had, hitherto.

I find it extraordinary that you diminish the subjugation of these women in order to score political points.

No, I have just done some reading.

And what has your reading taught you about Wahhabism and it’s attitudes to women? Do you believe the burqa is about empowering women and giving them rights?

 

[AlterEgo]

No, I have just done some reading.

Have you actually been anywhere where women are second class citizens?

 

[EM2]

If you don’t know then you don’t know - how can you disagree based on ignorance? Surely it’s obvious that some women are coerced into wearing the niqab in the same way you point out that many Western women are coerced into wearing things they might not like.

Why is it obvious? IF women are coerced into wearing a niqab, it is because they are coerced by emotionally controlling men (husbands, fathers), not because their own reading of their religious text says they must. The problem is coercion, not Islam.

(PS you posted a link earlier which contained countless tales from Muslim women who testified they were coerced, be careful when picking your sources, especially when you don’t bother to read them).

Which link? I read both links that I've posted in full, and didn't see anything.

Not sure why you’ve said that. I was explicit and plain in explaining:

Yet you still want to dictate what women can and cannot wear.

 

[EM2]

Have you actually been anywhere where women are second class citizens?

If you mean 'Have I been to any majority Muslim countries?' then yes. I've been to UAE and Egypt.

 

[Bromley boy]

Have you actually been anywhere where women are second class citizens?

I have - Morocco - the women (including my powerful, professional, modestly dressed girlfriend) who weren’t veiled were viewed by the indigenous men as objects to be leered at.

I won’t be going back, neither will she.

And yet we have British men on here arguing in favour of womens’ “right” to be covered from head to toe...

 

[EM2]

Yet again you’ve missed the point. They were doing it because that was a choice they hadn’t had, hitherto.

I find it extraordinary that you diminish the subjugation of these women in order to score political points.

EXACTLY! Now they have a choice, those women have decided not to wear it. Did *every* woman in Aleppo burn their niqab?

And what has your reading taught you about Wahhabism and it’s attitudes to women? Do you believe the burqa is about empowering women and giving them rights?

That they're in a very tiny minority among the Muslim population. The niqab and the burqa are not, themselves, about empowering women. The empowerment comes from a woman having the absolute right to wear whatever she wants, whenever she wants.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why is it obvious? IF women are coerced into wearing a niqab, it is because they are coerced by emotionally controlling men (husbands, fathers), not because their own reading of their religious text says they must. The problem is coercion, not Islam.

The problem is Islam. The religion in most mainstream forms doesn’t permit women to have any formal say in interpreting doctrine. The religion was written by and the culture is controlled almost solely by men.

We are fortunate to live in a secular democracy with freedom of association, choice, speech, thought, and so on. The Islamic World is overwhelmingly not like that. It is a repressive place and women are much less likely to be in control of their own destiny. The way women are treated ranges from eyebrow raising to outright revulsion when compared to Western standards.

Which link? I read both links that I've posted in full, and didn't see anything.

Try again then, I’m not doing all the work for you again. I mean if you can’t read all the testimonials of women saying blokes pressure them into wearing stuff on a webpage then heaven help us.

Yet you still want to dictate what women can and cannot wear.

No, I don’t. I’ve said I find their choice of clothing challenging, offensive, at odds with the values of the society I live in. At no point have I ever suggested dictating what any person should wear. People are free to wear what they like. That’s why where we live is better than any Islamic country you could care to name.

 

[AlterEgo]

EXACTLY! Now they have a choice, those women have decided not to wear it. Did *every* woman in Aleppo burn their niqab?

Oh hang on now, you’re conceding the - frankly obvious - point that some women choose to wear a niqab and some don’t? Make up your mind.

 

[Bromley boy]

EXACTLY! Now they have a choice, those women have decided not to wear it. Did *every* woman in Aleppo burn their niqab?

I don’t know, I didn’t ask them.

What I do know is that they were required to wear these garments under Isis rule.

What does that tell you about the burqa and female empowerment? Unless you’re saying you believe female empowerment is something Isis were in favour of?

That they're in a very tiny minority among the Muslim population. The niqab and the burqa are not, themselves, about empowering women.

You’re right. The niqab and burqa aren’t about empowering women, they’re about subjugating them. Can you honestly not see that?

They’re also not a requirement of the Islamic religion at all. They’re a requirement of an ultra conservative sect of said religion.

The empowerment comes from a woman having the absolute right to wear whatever she wants, whenever she wants.

Which is something the burqa achieves the opposite of. Many women who wear the burqa don’t have the right to wear anything else!

I get the sense I’m p*ssing in the wind here.

I’m not sure how many times the same point can be made until you acknowledge it. I suspect you’re wilfully ignoring it for reasons of your own - which is a shame.

 

[EM2]

Oh hang on now, you’re conceding the - frankly obvious - point that some women choose to wear a niqab and some don’t? Make up your mind.

I've said that since the very beginning!

 

[EM2]

I’m not sure how many times the same point can be made until you acknowledge it. I suspect you’re wilfully ignoring it for reasons of your own - which is a shame.

If a woman wants to wear a burqa, she should be allowed to wear a burqa. If someone else is coercing a woman to wear a burqa and she does not want to, that person should be punished in law.
Do you acknowledge that the vast majority of women that wear a niqab or a burqa do so entirely of their own free will?
Do you acknowledge that any woman should have the freedom to wear what they want?

 

[Bromley boy]

If a woman wants to wear a burqa, she should be allowed to wear a burqa.

Precious few women of any creed choose to wear a burqua, including precious few Muslim women (it’s not an Islamic requirement).

Serious question: Does your wife wear one? Would you like her to?

Answer honestly.

If someone else is coercing a woman to wear a burqa and she does not want to, that person should be punished in law.

And in some countries in the world that’s precisely what happens, with punishment for not wearing it.

Is that something you consider desirable?

Do you acknowledge that the vast majority of women that wear a niqab or a burqa do so entirely of their own free will?

No, I completely reject that statement. I’ve seen the YouTube footage of burqa burnings after the fall of Aleppo. Most women who wear it are forced to for cultural reasons.

I believe most women want to be treated as human beings, rather than subjugated and treated as objects. I also know Muslims who are utterly opposed to the burqa.

Do you acknowledge that any woman should have the freedom to wear what they want?

I do indeed although, paradoxically, I’m in favour of the burqa being banned, precisely because I’m in favour of female empowerment!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I remember in the aftermath of the September 11th attacks, and the subsequent military engagement against the Taliban government in Afghanistan (who, remember, enforced full face-covering for women), there was much discussion about the pros and cons of such garments in the media. The consensus (one I generally agree with) was that it was a sign of oppression and at odds with the western values that we were told our governments were spreading (I know, it was a more innocent time!). I do recall however, opinion pieces by British Muslim women who said they chose to wear the full face veil to prevent men leering at them. On the one hand, those women in Afghanistan or Aleppo who were forced to wear the veil under pain of death would probably be shocked at this. On the other hand, in the West we supposedly pride ourselves on the freedom we all have. That freedom means that sometimes others will choose to do something that makes us feel uncomfortable.

 

[AlterEgo]

I've said that since the very beginning!

No, you haven’t - I asked you if you’d disagree with the statement that some women are forced into wearing it, and you did indeed say you disagreed (as well as saying you also didn’t know).

 

[EM2]

Precious few women of any creed choose to wear a burqua, including precious few Muslim women (it’s not an Islamic requirement).

Serious question: Does your wife wear one? Would you like her to?

Answer honestly.

The number of people who wear an item is frankly immaterial.
My wife doesn't wear one. If she wanted to, I would not stand in her way.

And in some countries in the world that’s precisely what happens, with punishment for not wearing it.

Is that something you consider desirable?

Where? The Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia has stated that it is not mandatory. It's not law in Pakistan, and no longer in Afghanistan now that Taliban are not in power.

No, I completely reject that statement. I’ve seen the YouTube footage of burqa burnings after the fall of Aleppo. Most women who wear it are forced to for cultural reasons.

Yet not every woman did. So not every woman is forced to wear it, as you say. If it is not forced, then it has to be a personal choice.

I believe most women want to be treated as human beings, rather than subjugated and treated as objects. I also know Muslims who are utterly opposed to the burqa.

Being treated as a human being includes being free to wear what you want to.
And there are many are in complete agreement with it.

I do indeed although, paradoxically, I’m in favour of the burqa being banned, precisely because I’m in favour of female empowerment!

Then you do not believe in the freedom to wear whatever you want.
Would you feel the same about someone choosing to dress like a Power Ranger, or Catwoman?