Borismaster's on Route 267

[carlberry]

You can't have a through bus from everywhere to everywhere, and people are well used to changing on the Tube. A simpler connectional network will overall be of much more value.

The idea works very well with parcels so people should just get used to having to fit in with the network instead of having the network fit around them!

 

[transmanche]

And terrible for those with accessibility issues. How many can be accessed without climbing a high step?

Really? From memory, there are a few raised seats above the rear wheel arches - but the bus has the advantage of having a fully flat floor without a raised section to negotiate.

Compare that to the provincial spec Arriva Sapphire I've just alighted from, which had a total of 13 raised seats - about half the total on the lower deck. There were 9 seats in a raised section of floor at the rear of the bus, with a further 4 raised seats over the wheel arches.

So for all its faults, I think the Boris Bus does quite well for accessibility.

 

[transmanche]

That's being used as an excuse for a lot of cuts. How many people are going to be happy with more and more changes to do their journeys, even if they're no more expensive?

I take your point about it being used as mitigation for a lot of cuts. But I'd far rather have a shorter route with more frequent buses than a longer route running only infrequently - if there is no financial penalty for changing.

In the example of the 27 referred to upthread, Tfl say that there are 22bph between Hammersmith and Turnham Green but only 10bph are needed to meet existing demand. Cutting the 27's 8bph still leaves 14bph along this stretch - more than enough to meet demand. Beyond Turnham Green there are 30bph, but only 16bph are needed. With such massive over-provison of capacity and no money to waste, I can understand why TfL are prosing such cuts. And if there is no financial penalty for passengers, it's hard to argue against the reductions.

 

[johnw]

These buses are not liked as they were part of Boris Jonson’s time as Mayor. Red Ken’s articlulated were just as hated.The Stagecoach, Arriva, Go standerd with their garish interior are just as bad. I’m not a fan of , boris but at least he tried.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So for all its faults, I think the Boris Bus does quite well for accessibility.

Now it's got opening windows, I don't personally see an awful lot wrong with the body and what is contained within it at all. They just have a "cool" style and panache that bog-standard buses don't.

The faults lie entirely with the bits attached to the chassis. The same body on a more conventional chassis (vertical engined or centre engined so as to allow for the rear door which I think is a valuable addition) would have been cheaper and every bit as good from the passenger's point of view.

 

[Busaholic]

These buses are not liked as they were part of Boris Jonson’s time as Mayor. Red Ken’s articlulated were just as hated.The Stagecoach, Arriva, Go standerd with their garish interior are just as bad. I’m not a fan of , boris but at least he tried.

I agree - he was very trying.

 

[goldisgood]

As Stagecoach are leasing their buses coming into London it would be nice (although unlikely) if they used some of the red moquette like in the Enviro 400 Cities that CT Plus and Arriva use. Personally I hate the Borismasters - I find the seats uncomfortable, they look ugly imo and they are a vanity product that was a huge waste of money. I think they were something like £350k per bus which is quite a bit more than even a hybrid bus. They've cost millions to create, design and build, which could've been spent on other things.

 

[Deerfold]

Really? From memory, there are a few raised seats above the rear wheel arches - but the bus has the advantage of having a fully flat floor without a raised section to negotiate.

No - worries, I mentioned the numbers in the post before yours - and the fact the type of bus on the 205 has a flat floor except for the step just before the rear row of seats.

I'm on a 205 at the moment. Of the 25 seats downstairs, 10 require no steps. If you're standing the only step is just before the back seats.
On a Borismaster, I make it 8 seats with no step of 24 in total.
For a revolutionary design that doesn't seem great.

And indeed, it means it's incorrect to say the Borismaster has no fewer seats without a step than other London buses

Compare that to the provincial spec Arriva Sapphire I've just alighted from, which had a total of 13 raised seats - about half the total on the lower deck. There were 9 seats in a raised section of floor at the rear of the bus, with a further 4 raised seats over the wheel arches.

So for all its faults, I think the Boris Bus does quite well for accessibility.

The most important thing is not how many seats are inaccessible, but how many *are* accessible - if there's 13 with no step, that's not too bad.

 

[Deerfold]

I take your point about it being used as mitigation for a lot of cuts. But I'd far rather have a shorter route with more frequent buses than a longer route running only infrequently - if there is no financial penalty for changing.

Most of the cuts in routes are not resulting in a more frequent service - indeed, some are seeing cuts to both.

 

[Deerfold]

These buses are not liked as they were part of Boris Jonson’s time as Mayor. Red Ken’s articlulated were just as hated.The Stagecoach, Arriva, Go standerd with their garish interior are just as bad. I’m not a fan of , boris but at least he tried.

I don't think most people cared who was Mayor when they're deciding whether they like the buses (though they do when they're complaining about wastes of money). There were vocal complaints about the bendybuses. Very few of them were from bus users. And they cost less to buy per passenger than a standard double decker bus. When they were withdrawn (all before a normal service life, wasting more money) they were generally replaced by a larger number of double deckers.

Boris tried to do something headline-catching. It wasn't very effective for moving people around for a decent price. His successor is not repeating the mistake of wasting even more money by replacing them early but has stopped ordering them. The Borisbus is pretty from the outside, but given the choice of two routes over a decent distance, I'd pick the non-Borisbus route (not that that's likely to be an option much).

 

[transmanche]

Most of the cuts in routes are not resulting in a more frequent service - indeed, some are seeing cuts to both.

I think you misunderstood me, so perhaps I should clarify.

"But I'd far rather have a shorter route with more frequent buses than a longer route running only infrequently - if there is no financial penalty for changing."

I meant I'd rather have two short routes with a 10-minute frequency and need to change half-way, than have a long route that only ran at a 20-minute frequency - so long as there is no financial penalty.

In the part of my post that you didn't quote, I gave the example of the changes brought about by the truncation of the 27. One section of the route is being reduced form 30bph to 22bph , but only 16bph is needed to meet capacity. So there's still an overprovision of 6bph. And instead of a bus on average every 2 mins, there will be a bus on average every 3 minutes. It's hardly the end of the world.

 

[transmanche]

Compare that to the provincial spec Arriva Sapphire I've just alighted from, which had a total of 13 raised seats - about half the total on the lower deck.

The most important thing is not how many seats are inaccessible, but how many *are* accessible - if there's 13 with no step, that's not too bad.

Well you asked about the number of inaccessible seats, so I responded to that.

However, as I mentioned above, it was a provincial spec bus with only one door. And I forgot that the seats at the front of the bus were raised too. So that makes 9 seats at the rear in the raised floor section and 7 seats that are raised and have a step up, leaving about 10 seats that are fully accessible.

An equivalent London spec dual-door bus would have even fewer fully-accessible seats - possibly only 8. So in comparison, the Boris Bus with its three doors is not looking too bad on accessibility.

 

[Mikey C]

Personally I find the Volvo B5LH Hybrids which seem very popular with operators nowadays have appalling lower deck interiors, irrespective of which body it has. A tiny low floor section, and the rear of the saloon is all over the place, with seats scattered at different heights. With the nearside seats at the highest level, my head touches the ceiling. Give me a Borismaster anyday.