Boro Taxis 'will not take disabled people' in fares row

[ECML180]

For me, if I am hiring a coach for a transfer of 25 passengers between a railway station and hotel, I would ask for a 33 seater. However if I asked for a vehicle with a toilet(higher specification) and the only vehicle they had with one was a 49 seater, I would accept that I would have to pay more.

Likewise, unfair as it may seem to the passenger, if I needed a wheelchair ramp/lift and this was only available in 8 seaters, that's what I would expect to pay for.

 

[thegrimeater]

Surely you have a choice which taxi firm you use, if they don't offer large enough vehicles for wheelchairs then you can use another firm. If you get the train or the bus somewhere they are more than likely the only provider going to your destination, therefore surely have more of an obligation to provide vehicles capable to carrying wheelchairs?

 

[Tetchytyke]

For me, if I am hiring a coach for a transfer of 25 passengers between a railway station and hotel, I would ask for a 33 seater. However if I asked for a vehicle with a toilet(higher specification) and the only vehicle they had with one was a 49 seater, I would accept that I would have to pay more.

Likewise, unfair as it may seem to the passenger, if I needed a wheelchair ramp/lift and this was only available in 8 seaters, that's what I would expect to pay for.

Again, you're saying you're happy to pay more for a vehicle with a higher specification.

Taxi drivers lease their own cars, usually. They have a choice when they sign the lease agreement: they can have a wheelchair-accessible car or they can have a normal car. A normal car is cheaper but they will miss out on wheelchair bookings. A wheelchair-accessible car is more expensive but they will be available for more bookings. They pay their money and take their choice.

What they can't do is charge more for the use of the taxi.

It's no different to the bloke who chooses to lease a Skoda instead of the cheapest car on the market.

 

[ECML180]

Again, you're saying you're happy to pay more for a vehicle with a higher specification.

Taxi drivers lease their own cars, usually. They have a choice when they sign the lease agreement: they can have a wheelchair-accessible car or they can have a normal car. A normal car is cheaper but they will miss out on wheelchair bookings. A wheelchair-accessible car is more expensive but they will be available for more bookings. They pay their money and take their choice.

What they can't do is charge more for the use of the taxi.

It's no different to the bloke who chooses to lease a Skoda instead of the cheapest car on the market.

I'm trying to provide what I think is a better example in the case of the user making the booking-it's the choice of the taxi/coach owner what specification they choose and as you say it should match up with the business they hope to attract.

 

[IanD]

What they can't do is charge more for the use of the taxi.

They're not charging more, they are charging everyone who uses a bigger taxi the same fare. Seems like they are treating everyone equally to me.

 

[Tetchytyke]

They're not charging more, they are charging everyone who uses a bigger taxi the same fare. Seems like they are treating everyone equally to me.

Except they're not, they're imposing the use of a bigger taxi on people because of a business decision they made. There are plenty of cars that are wheelchair accessible, Boro Taxis have chosen not to lease them.

They've clearly decided to have minibuses as the only wheelchair accessible transport, because when a wheelchair user doesn't need it they can do airport transfers, that sort of thing. Fine, I don't blame them. What they can't do, though, is insist that a wheelchair user pays the minibus rate not the car rate because of that business decision.

I fail to see why this is so controversial. They made a business decision to only have wheelchair accessible minibuses, they will benefit by having a bigger minibus fleet but the trade-off is that a minibus driver can only charge the car rate to a wheelchair user.

As for losing money, what tosh. What they mean is they can't charge minibus rates, so their profits will be lower.

 

[IanD]

Some people seem to confuse "Equal treatment" with "positive discrimination" whereas there should be no discrimination at all.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Except that there's no positive discrimination either. Wheelchair users don't travel for free, or get half fare, do they?

Wheelchair users should be charged the same as other single traveller users- the car rate. Unless someone specifies they want a minibus (which no sole traveller ever does) then they should be charged the car rate.

Boro Taxis took a business decision to only have minibuses that will fit a wheelchair user in. There are plenty of car based models that will do the same job. I can understand why they made this business decision, but they should only charge a wheelchair user the car rate for their journey.

Sometimes I've used private hire in Manchester and they've sent a minibus because that was spare and in the area. I was charged the car rate, and rightly so, as they made the business decision to send that rather than a car.

 

[ECML180]

Sometimes I've used private hire in Manchester and they've sent a minibus because that was spare and in the area. I was charged the car rate, and rightly so, as they made the business decision to send that rather than a car.

What if on booking, you were told the only suitable/available vehicle was a minibus, what would you expect to pay?

 

[jopsuk]

London-style "Black cabs" are all wheelchair accesible, and they're common in many parts of the country, as are people carriers that have been configured to be internally similar to black cabs (which is what future London taxis will be).

It is I think entirely possible for a local authority to require that Taxis conform to certain standards- it's quite common for all taxis in an authority to have to be the same colour, for example. Note that generally this doens't apply to minicabs. So it is possible to require (with a suitable grace period for its introduction) that all vehicles licensed as Taxis (and thus able to pick up at the road side, use taxi ranks etc) should be accesible?

 

[Deerfold]

What if on booking, you were told the only suitable/available vehicle was a minibus, what would you expect to pay?

If all you've asked for is a taxi, the normal taxi rate.

If all the company has available/handy is a minibus, that's not my fault, wether I'm in a wheelchair or not.

I've had a minibus sent before for only 2 or 3 passengers and been charged the normal rate - the alternative is likely to have been the company telling me there'd be a long wait and me phoning another company.

 

[ECML180]

If all you've asked for is a taxi, the normal taxi rate.

If all the company has available/handy is a minibus, that's not my fault, wether I'm in a wheelchair or not.

I've had a minibus sent before for only 2 or 3 passengers and been charged the normal rate - the alternative is likely to have been the company telling me there'd be a long wait and me phoning another company.

I can understand why the company would charge the normal rate-I would too!

But if a passenger is informed the only vehicle available is a minibus and then place the booking-as far as I can see, they've booked a minibus.

 

[DarloRich]

Arctic Troll has the correct answer - there really should be no debate here!

As for Boro Cabs they are not a hackney carriage firm, they are a private hire/mini cab firm (or at least they were when i lived there!)

 

[ECML180]

Arctic Troll has the correct answer - there really should be no debate here!

As for Boro Cabs they are not a hackney carriage firm, they are a private hire/mini cab firm (or at least they were when i lived there!)

You ring up a bus & coach firm and ask for a wheelchair accessible bus, the reply "they're all step entrance, but we have a luxury coach with a wheelchair lift." I personally cannot see why they wouldn't be in the right to charge for a coach.

Likewise at Boro Cabs, I don't see why they haven't got any smaller wheelchair accessible vehicles, many private hire firms do now. But if the only wheelchair accessible vehicle they have is a minibus and who knows that books a wheelchair accessible vehicle-as far as I can tell that's what they pay for. If they want to pay for a wheechair accessible vehicle at normal rates they should look for a company with a vehicle that fits what they want or compromise.

 

[transmanche]

YIf they want to pay for a wheechair accessible vehicle at normal rates they should look for a company with a vehicle that fits what they want or compromise.

Not easy if the taxi firm ("the largest in the North East") have a virtual monopoly...

 

[ECML180]

Not easy if the taxi firm ("the largest in the North East") have a virtual monopoly...

Market failure-unfortunate but if the market doesn't sort itself out then it's up to the government or local authority to step in.

 

[transmanche]

Market failure-unfortunate but if the market doesn't sort itself out then it's up to the government or local authority to step in.

Which is exactly what the local authority did; i.e. warn taxi operators that they might lose their licence if they continued to charge disabled passengers extra.

 

[richw]

I caught a taxi today in Falmouth. They had their table of rates (A laminated A4 sheet) on display in the cab (a Transit 8 seater), which said there was a higher rate if the group was greater than 4 people. This seems a more appropriate charging method, and the onus is on the taxi firm to provide a suitable vehicle for the booking.

 

[ECML180]

Which is exactly what the local authority did; i.e. warn taxi operators that they might lose their licence if they continued to charge disabled passengers extra.

But they way they're doing it is unfair on the taxi operator, hence it is government failure.

 

[DarloRich]

You ring up a bus & coach firm and ask for a wheelchair accessible bus, the reply "they're all step entrance, but we have a luxury coach with a wheelchair lift." I personally cannot see why they wouldn't be in the right to charge for a coach.

Is the concept that hard to grasp? You cant do it. You can not charge a disabled person more for a service than an able bodied person regardless of how they are conveyed.The service is the key, not the means of conveyance!

To use your example. IF firms were allowed to do as you suggest the ONLY taxi a wheelchair bound customer would ever be offered would be a higher spec vehicle at a higher price than an able bodied person.

 

[Deerfold]

But they way they're doing it is unfair on the taxi operator, hence it is government failure.

How would you suggest doing to, so it's unfair to anyone?

 

[ECML180]

To use your example. IF firms were allowed to do as you suggest the ONLY taxi a wheelchair bound customer would ever be offered would be a higher spec vehicle at a higher price than an able bodied person.

Incorrect. A passenger would be charged for the vehicle they book. If there are only 8 seaters available and someone books one, thats what they pay for.

How would you suggest doing to, so it's unfair to anyone?

Not at all, if it's considered that it needs to be resolved then either all taxi and private hire vehicles should be made to be accessible and subsidy given to operators to cover the extra costs or the fare for a larger vehicle subsidised to that of a smaller one.

Or, it should be left alone!

 

[DarloRich]

Incorrect. A passenger would be charged for the vehicle they book. If there are only 8 seaters available and someone books one, thats what they pay for.

Under your rules if you are i an wheel chair what do you bet that "only" a mini bus will be ever be available?

The customer books a taxi for one person. The law says you cant charge for a different service. Why should a single wheel chair bound customer be treated differently from me?

 

[richw]

Under your rules if you are i an wheel chair what do you bet that "only" a mini bus will be ever be available?

The customer books a taxi for one person. The law says you cant charge for a different service. Why should a single wheel chair bound customer be treated differently from me?

My post #48 covers how my local taxi operators are charging. This seems to be the only way round this.

 

[ECML180]

Under your rules if you are i an wheel chair what do you bet that "only" a mini bus will be ever be available?

The customer books a taxi for one person. The law says you cant charge for a different service. Why should a single wheel chair bound customer be treated differently from me?

I'm not saying they should be treated differently. You are. I'm saying that anyone booking an 8 seater should pay the rate for an 8 seater. You are saying that because they are disabled, they should pay less. You're the one discriminating.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm not saying they should be treated differently. You are. I'm saying that anyone booking an 8 seater should pay the rate for an 8 seater. You are saying that because they are disabled, they should pay less. You're the one discriminating.

what? Of course you are. :roll:

The customer isn't booking an 8 seater the company is sending one! The customer books a taxi!

 

[transmanche]

But they way they're doing it is unfair on the taxi operator, hence it is government failure.

I fail to see how it's the unfair on the taxi operator. Conveying wheelchair passengers is part of the business, but they have failed to acquire the appropriate tool for the job; i.e. a wheelchair-accessible vehicle smaller than a minibus. That's the fault of the taxi operator, not the passenger.

 

[ECML180]

what? Of course you are. :roll:

The customer isn't booking an 8 seater the company is sending one! The customer books a taxi!

A wheelchair accessible taxi-if they only have an accessible 8 seater what else can they send. If you go into a baker and hope to buy a small sausage roll, if they don't have one you buy a large one or don't!

I fail to see how it's the unfair on the taxi operator. Conveying wheelchair passengers is part of the business, but they have failed to acquire the appropriate tool for the job; i.e. a wheelchair-accessible vehicle smaller than a minibus. That's the fault of the taxi operator, not the passenger.

By applying that logic, every bus company should have every size bus, in every specification, just in case someone wants one. It isn't practical. Wheelchair accessible vehicles cost more, it could well be that buying a wheelchair accessible vehicle of that size makes the purchase unviable, then everyone loses out because no-one would operate a taxi!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Shall we just agree to disagree otherwise we'll be here all night?

 

[Deerfold]

A wheelchair accessible taxi-if they only have an accessible 8 seater what else can they send. If you go into a baker and hope to buy a small sausage roll, if they don't have one you buy a large one or don't!

But that would apply to everyone, not discriminate against those in a wheelchair.

By applying that logic, every bus company should have every size bus, in every specification, just in case someone wants one. It isn't practical. Wheelchair accessible vehicles cost more, it could well be that buying a wheelchair accessible vehicle of that size makes the purchase unviable, then everyone loses out because no-one would operate a taxi!

Legally you are allowed to discriminate against some people. The disabled, along with other groups have specific legal protection.

 

[DarloRich]

A wheelchair accessible taxi-if they only have an accessible 8 seater what else can they send. If you go into a baker and hope to buy a small sausage roll, if they don't have one you buy a large one or don't!



By applying that logic, every bus company should have every size bus, in every specification, just in case someone wants one. It isn't practical. Wheelchair accessible vehicles cost more, it could well be that buying a wheelchair accessible vehicle of that size makes the purchase unviable, then everyone loses out because no-one would operate a taxi!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Shall we just agree to disagree otherwise we'll be here all night?

I am walking away now before i post something i will regret and get told off. I think you are wrong and fail to grasp a very simple concept.