Botched Execution or Not??

[muddythefish]

Nowt but state-endorsed revenge. Glad we scrapped it.

Quite right.

Capital punishment has no place in a civilised society

 

[ExRes]

Quite right.

Capital punishment has no place in a civilised society

You think we live in a civilised society ?

 

[90sWereBetter]

Quite right.

Capital punishment has no place in a civilised society

Pretty much this.

 

[muddythefish]

You think we live in a civilised society ?

Don't you ?

 

[ExRes]

Don't you ?

When I pick up the newspaper or watch the news I find it increasingly difficult to find anything 'civilised' about society whatsoever, do you think society to be civilised ?

 

[SS4]

When I pick up the newspaper or watch the news I find it increasingly difficult to find anything 'civilised' about society whatsoever, do you think society to be civilised ?

That is a problem with the newspaper and the news. Sure there are things that we could do better but to imply that what's in the news is representative of the goings on in the world is false.

 

[Bevan Price]

Further reading suggests the Police obviously should have for basically setting this guy up , although at the time that was pretty typical behavior

The Judge should have for the way he led the Jury and was biased against the defendant .

The Jury though Im struggling to see why they should face any comebacks . Studies have proven that a judges summing up is very persuasive to the Jury so I personally dont think the Jury did anything wrong in convicting someone based off the evidence they would have had and the way they where instructed by the Judge .

Even now, most people tend to believe the police, and the evidence they provide to courts. So, when the police are deficient, or incompetent, they still tend to get believed. They are hard-worked, generally honest & competent, but only human and fallible. So, when presented with evidence that appears to implicate somebody, there is always a risk that they will decide that they have identified the culprit, and not bother look for further, evidence that might conflict with what they have decided is "the truth".

 

[ExRes]

That is a problem with the newspaper and the news. Sure there are things that we could do better but to imply that what's in the news is representative of the goings on in the world is false.

Sorry, you've stumped me on that one

 

[90019]

Sorry, you've stumped me on that one

Good news stories don't sell papers.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

How legally would those responsible for the unsafe convictions have actually committed the offence of Murder ?

Yes but then the money used to do loads of things could be better spent .

Do you think it would be any cheaper to administer a CJS with the massive and seemingly endless appeal processes that you would have to have in place if you where to execute people . Not to mention a special fund to compensate the families of those wrongfully convicted and executed ?

What do you do with the increasing number of people who are too dangerous and nasty to turn out on to the streets ? Turn the Isle of Wight in to a Devils' Island/Alcatraz ? There are just some people too nasty to be out and about. My only real objection to the death penalty is that you need to implicitly trust the judicial process and system and we are still a long way from that here.

 

[ExRes]

Good news stories don't sell papers.

Indeed, they can of course but our 'civilised' society ensures that there aren't anywhere near as many good stories as bad, but that doesn't mean we can close our eyes and minds and pretend that our society isn't falling to pieces in a sea of violence and self interest

 

[muz379]

What do you do with the increasing number of people who are too dangerous and nasty to turn out on to the streets ? Turn the Isle of Wight in to a Devils' Island/Alcatraz ? There are just some people too nasty to be out and about. My only real objection to the death penalty is that you need to implicitly trust the judicial process and system and we are still a long way from that here.

Do you have any evidence to back up your claims that there are increasing numbers that are too dangerous and nasty to be on the streets?

Or are they just sensationalist claims ?

I suppose ill repeat my question because you didnt answer it .


Do you think it would be any cheaper to administer a CJS with the massive and seemingly endless appeal processes that you would have to have in place if you where to execute people . Not to mention a special fund to compensate the families of those wrongfully convicted and executed ?

 

[tony_mac]

The evidence from the US is that the death penalty is more expensive than life imprisonment,.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2011/09/22/death-and-taxes-the-real-cost-of-the-death-penalty/

the California Commission found that “the additional cost of confining an inmate to death row, as compared to the maximum security prisons where those sentenced to life without possibility of parole ordinarily serve their sentences, is $90,000 per year per inmate. With California’s current death row population of 670, that accounts for $63.3 million annually.”

 

[fowler9]

Indeed, they can of course but our 'civilised' society ensures that there aren't anywhere near as many good stories as bad, but that doesn't mean we can close our eyes and minds and pretend that our society isn't falling to pieces in a sea of violence and self interest

Our society always has been like that. I'm not sure killing more people will make it any nicer. For most people life is actually alright in our society! I think a few things could be improved upon but you make it sound like we live in purgatory.

 

[SS4]

Sorry, you've stumped me on that one

Good news stories don't sell papers.

What he said

Indeed, they can of course but our 'civilised' society ensures that there aren't anywhere near as many good stories as bad, but that doesn't mean we can close our eyes and minds and pretend that our society isn't falling to pieces in a sea of violence and self interest

You have to divorce yourself from the notion that the papers and general news media is here to give us news. Instead they exist to make money like every other business (this is a good thing on its own) and will report whatever they feel makes them the most money. This means sensationalist headlines which is nearly always bad news and/or rule breaking (would you go and tell everyone you crossed the road safely?) presumably due to human nature. It does not help that plurality in ownership is very weak in this country. Only the Guardian dared publish the Snowden files and next to no mainstream outlet is reporting on the current plans to fatally weaken encryption online.

Society may be getting less civilised but I feel the media is fuelling the fire rather than being an impartial reporter. I can definitely agree on self-interest though especially from those in power as the growing gap in inequality testifies to. We are certainly becoming less civilised if we cannot even provide food for our citizens.

 

[muddythefish]

What he said



You have to divorce yourself from the notion that the papers and general news media is here to give us news. Instead they exist to make money like every other business (this is a good thing on its own) and will report whatever they feel makes them the most money[ This means sensationalist headlines which is nearly always bad news and/or rule breaking (would you go and tell everyone you crossed the road safely?) presumably due to human nature. It does not help that plurality in ownership is very weak in this country. Only the Guardian dared publish the Snowden files and next to no mainstream outlet is reporting on the current plans to fatally weaken encryption online.
.

Complete and utter rubbish. News agendas are driven by the best stories of the day and nothing else.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Do you have any evidence to back up your claims that there are increasing numbers that are too dangerous and nasty to be on the streets?

Or are they just sensationalist claims ?

I suppose ill repeat my question because you didnt answer it .


Do you think it would be any cheaper to administer a CJS with the massive and seemingly endless appeal processes that you would have to have in place if you where to execute people . Not to mention a special fund to compensate the families of those wrongfully convicted and executed ?

I don't know but we could always change the laws to make it cheaper.
Am fed up with the so called civilized society garbage. This society benefited from a system that exploited half the planet and still sells and drops bombs on people. Most 'civilisations' have been built on the blood of others so why is there so much uproar about killing those who are a direct threat to you or your family ?

 

[TheKnightWho]

I don't know but we could always change the laws to make it cheaper.
Am fed up with the so called civilized society garbage. This society benefited from a system that exploited half the planet and still sells and drops bombs on people. Most 'civilisations' have been built on the blood of others so why is there so much uproar about killing those who are a direct threat to you or your family ?

I don't see how that justifies anything?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

When I pick up the newspaper or watch the news I find it increasingly difficult to find anything 'civilised' about society whatsoever, do you think society to be civilised ?

There is an enormous amount of evidence that the world is (in general) actually improving. We just hear about the bad stuff more, because news travels faster and wider now, and bad news sells papers.

http://thehigherlearning.com/2014/0...t-getting-worse-its-getting-much-much-better/

Aside from that, saying "the world's terrible so it doesn't matter" is an awful excuse to do bad things. How would it ever improve if everyone took that attitude?

 

[Flamingo]

The evidence from the US is that the death penalty is more expensive than life imprisonment,.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2011/09/22/death-and-taxes-the-real-cost-of-the-death-penalty/

That's the US, where the main cause of death to Death Row prisoners is natural causes or old age . The UK used to schedule hangings for 3-4 weeks after the sentence was given (three Sundays had to elapse)...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

News agendas are driven by the best stories of the day and nothing else.

But who decides what the best stories of the day are? The editorial teams, who answer to the management teams.

We, the public, have to trust the media to report what is going on. Until social media came along we had no idea how much was going on that wasn't getting reported. These days we are finding out a greater variety of news but from the unofficial channels, so we know more of what is going on but presumably we also know less accurately what is going on.

 

[muz379]

I don't know but we could always change the laws to make it cheaper.

Youve gone back round full circle . Youve already admitted you dont trust the judiciary or the state . How do you think changing the law to make the whole process any cheaper is going to fare for people that are wrongfully accused of and charged with crimes .

Ive deleted the bit about civil society from the quote merely because ive not actually pursued that argument in this thread .

That's the US, where the main cause of death to Death Row prisoners is natural causes or old age . The UK used to schedule hangings for 3-4 weeks after the sentence was given (three Sundays had to elapse)...

does that really allow enough time for proper appeal processes to be carried out though ?

 

[muddythefish]

But who decides what the best stories of the day are? The editorial teams, who answer to the management teams.

We, the public, have to trust the media to report what is going on. Until social media came along we had no idea how much was going on that wasn't getting reported. These days we are finding out a greater variety of news but from the unofficial channels, so we know more of what is going on but presumably we also know less accurately what is going on.

More nonsense. News editors and senior editors drive the agenda. "Management" would be not-so-politely where told to go if it tried to interfere. I'm speaking from experience here.

 

[radamfi]

When I pick up the newspaper or watch the news I find it increasingly difficult to find anything 'civilised' about society whatsoever, do you think society to be civilised ?

How come you say this, yet you criticised me for saying that having children is unethical?

 

[Flamingo]

does that really allow enough time for proper appeal processes to be carried out though ?

In the 19th and first half of the 20th Century it was considered to be adequate. I'm not saying it was right or not, just that saying the cost of "Death Row" prisoners in the USA would be much the same if given life sentences in lieu, as the jail time for many years is equivalent. This cost could be stripped if they had a quicker "turn around"!

My personal view is that any western democracy should be able to absorb the cost of keeping anybody who is that much of a danger to society incarcerated indefinitely if required.

 

[ExRes]

How come you say this, yet you criticised me for saying that having children is unethical?

Could it possibly be because uncivilised people can become civilised if they actually try , whereas ceasing reproduction, which you inferred and no I'm not searching for your original post, would result in the end of civilised and uncivilised people full stop, a subtle difference I believe

 

[DarloRich]

My view for, what it is worth, is that the death penalty doesn’t really work and offers an easy way out. Much better to keep these people locked up for the rest of their lives in a harsher environment and have them be confronted daily as to the impact of their crimes.

I do see the appeal of the death sentence; it seems so easy just to fall back on the eye for an eye argument, but I just don’t think it works or offers any real deterrent.

 

[Johnuk123]

Much better to keep these people locked up for the rest of their lives in a harsher environment and have them be confronted daily as to the impact of their crimes.

The trouble is the high security estate environment is anything but harsh and they are not and never have been confronted daily as to the impact of their crimes.

 

[muddythefish]

The trouble is the high security estate environment is anything but harsh and they are not and never have been confronted daily as to the impact of their crimes.

They are locked up in a cell every night - and sometimes in the day too. If you think it's easy street why not try it ?

How do you suggest they "confront daily the impact of their crimes" ?

 

[Flamingo]

The trouble is the high security estate environment is anything but harsh and they are not and never have been confronted daily as to the impact of their crimes.

Prisons today are just like holiday camps - full of 1970's entertainers!

(Ba Bom tish! )

 

[fowler9]

Prisons today are just like holiday camps - full of 1970's entertainers!

(Ba Bom tish! )

Ha ha ha. Have yourself a cheesy Facebook "like" for that.

A mate of mine is a Barrister (Not to be confused with a Barista). He frequently has to visit inmates in HMP Walton in Liverpool and he has assured us that it really isn't somewhere that any of us would want to see the inside of. You would have to be a hardened nut job to find the living easy by all accounts.