Bought Child all area day saver instead of 16-18 day saver

[TCharn]

My girlfriend was fined for travelling with a child ticket at Liverpool central when she is 17, she bought the ticket from the machine at Chester station and accidentally pressed the child button and bought the all area child day saver instead of the 16-18 all area day saver, and they are both the identical price of £2.95.

The fine is ~£58 if paid within 21 days, but she honestly can’t afford to pay it because her and her family are struggling financially, and she can’t pay the fine herself and her parents probably won’t pay it, so I worry what the further consequences will be if not paid.

I am going to try to appeal, but I doubt I’ll get anywhere, but I thought I’d make a post on her and see if I could get any feedback and whether the appeal is likely to get anywhere because at the end of the day she was travelling with a child ticket and is not a child, but she did pay for a ticket just the wrong one and also had to buy another ticket anyway to get back to Chester as the fine was not enough evidence to the security at the gate.

She obviously made a mistake in buying the wrong ticket, but it was a miss click of a finger, and she was unaware until stopped at Liverpool central that she had bought the wrong ticket.

Do you think we will get anywhere, and do you have any advice when making the appeal? Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

[WesternLancer]

My girlfriend was fined for travelling with a child ticket at Liverpool central when she is 17, she bought the ticket from the machine at Chester station and accidentally pressed the child button and bought the child day saver instead of the 16-18 day saver, and they are both the identical price of £2.35.

The fine is ~£58 if paid within 21 days, but she honestly can’t afford to pay it because her and her family are struggling financially, and she can’t pay the fine herself and her parents probably won’t pay it, so I worry what the further consequences will be if not paid.

I am going to try to appeal, but I doubt I’ll get anywhere, but I thought I’d make a post on her and see if I could get any feedback and whether the appeal is likely to get anywhere because at the end of the day she was travelling with a child ticket and is not a child, but she did pay for a ticket just the wrong one and also had to buy another ticket anyway to get back to Chester as the fine was not enough evidence to the security at the gate.

She obviously made a mistake in buying the wrong ticket, but it was a miss click of a finger, and she was unaware until stopped at Liverpool central that she had bought the wrong ticket.

Do you think we will get anywhere, and do you have any advice when making the appeal? Any advice would be much appreciated.

Hi there - Firstly this most important thing to check is that she was issued with a Penalty Fare (actually called that) which comes with a right of appeal. Are you 100% sure of that?

Merseyrail issue other sorts of sanctions without the ability to Appeal them so it is important to be clear about this - you could upload a copy of any paperwork / ticket type thing given to her with personal ref numbers etc blanked out if you want ppl to check.

Assuming it was a Penalty Fare (PF) the consequences of not paying would be:

- If not paid the £50 sum + fare owed increases to £100 + fare owed in 21 days.
- If that is not paid they can take it to court and the sum starts going up rapidly and could reach several hundred quid quite quickly.....avoid this at all costs.
- If she made a ticket mistake again they might be less likely to issue a PF next time but instead issue something worse...as they may think she is a persistent fare evader for example.

Sadly people buying child tickets who are not entitled to them is a common fare dodge, so if she did this in error I doubt they will believe it.

I think the best advice is to do anything possible to pay the sum asked for quickly, before the costs get higher.

However, there are some reasons to Appeal - these are:

- The 50% prompt payment discount of the PF is frozen during the appeal process - through all 3 appeal stages (so this could give her more time to save up the money demanded)
- By submitting an Appeal IIRC the rules prevent her then being prosecuted for travelling without a valid ticket (which would result in higher fine + costs and criminal record potentially)

The problem you will have is that Appeals have to be based on a reason within the legislation as to why the PF should not have been issued. You are not going to get a successful appeal on the basis of being asked to be let off because you processed the wrong button by mistake on the ticket machine. But if you need to Appeal to buy some time then you could use that.

There are other way to appeal based on if the PF warning signage at boarding station, Chester, being wrong but the forum would probably need pics of that signage or a forum member who lives near that station may know and be able to advise.

So can you check or upload any paperwork (with personal details obscured) so we can be 100% sure what your girlfriend has been issued with

Apart from Appealing to buy more time, it's vital not to ignore this - as the only outcome of not paying (unless an Appeal was won) is that the costs and hassle for your girlfriend will go up - and they will pursue it, it won't go away I'm afraid to say (examples on this forum of other cases from Merseyrail where this happens).

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is so utterly ridiculous (because they've lost nothing) that I'd personally, assuming it is a PF, shove it through all three levels of appeal just to ensure I cost them more than £50 in administrative charges, even if there will probably be no option but to pay it in the end.

The railway has lost no money at all as child fare tickets are the same price as 16-17 Saver tickets. Indeed in the early days of the Saver people were instructed to buy child tickets until the issuing mechanisms were updated to allow the Saver to be selected. I don't know why they didn't stick with that.

Another thing to check would be whether the Penalty Fares signage at Chester is correct - as it's not a Merseyrail station there's not an unreasonable chance that it may not be.

Indeed it may even be that the third level (only that one is independent) may see it as a mitigation, but probably not.

If it is not a PF but rather a settlement to avoid court action there is no other option than to simply pay.

 

[TCharn]

Thank you, it does have the right to appeal on the fine so assume it is a PF so I’m going to do as much as I can to get it appealed because that fine is two weeks worth of food for her and the family. They can’t afford to just lose that because she accidentally bought an identical ticket with the same travel privileges and had to buy another one anyway when travelling back. I spoke to the customer relations number and they just told me to email the enforcement and make an appeal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thank you, it does have the right to appeal on the fine so assume it is a PF so I’m going to do as much as I can to get it appealed because that fine is two weeks worth of food for her and the family. They can’t afford to just lose that because she accidentally bought an identical ticket with the same travel privileges and had to buy another one anyway when travelling back. I spoke to the customer relations number and they just told me to email the enforcement and make an appeal.

If you'd like to be sure, post what you received here with any names, addresses, reference numbers etc redacted and we can confirm.

If it is a Penalty Fare, appealing can't cause any harm, even if it does just cost them money and delay the inevitable.

With regard to the "posters incorrectly displayed" question, does anyone here know what PF posters are on display at Chester and whether they contain the exact correct wording by law? A lot of them don't...

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you, it does have the right to appeal on the fine so assume it is a PF so I’m going to do as much as I can to get it appealed because that fine is two weeks worth of food for her and the family. They can’t afford to just lose that because she accidentally bought an identical ticket with the same travel privileges and had to buy another one anyway when travelling back. I spoke to the customer relations number and they just told me to email the enforcement and make an appeal.

If you would like to do so then post your draft Appeal wording up here for people to check to help you get it as good as it can be - you should make sure it is very clear in what you write that there has been no financial loss to the railway as a result of the mistake made when buying the ticket in your appeal wording.

If you Apeal on line make sure to watch out for replies in spam as missing the replies can cause the matter to escalate without you being aware. This must be avoided.

If the appeal process fails then it would be better for her to borrow money from you or family to pay the PF than to let this escalate as the costs will go up far more quite quickly.

 

[gray1404]

I note that Merseyrail have told you to email their enforcement email address. It is vital that you submit your appeal EXACTLY according to the instructions on the penalty fare notice in order for it to be considered an appeal and for the clock to be stopped in terms of prompt payment discount.

 

[WesternLancer]

I note that Merseyrail have told you to email their enforcement email address. It is vital that you submit your appeal EXACTLY according to the instructions on the penalty fare notice in order for it to be considered an appeal and for the clock to be stopped in terms of prompt payment discount.

Yes, and this rings alarm bells to start with because aren't PF's dealt with by an independent appeals service (not Merseyrails' enforcement team)? or are Merseyrail PF's different?

 

[gray1404]

Merseyrail PFs are dealt with by an independent appeals service. If the OP or associate ensure they follow the appeal instructions exactly as printed on the PF notice (and not the incorrect information given by Merseyrail Customer Relations) then there will not be problem in terms of the appeal being logged correctly.

This is the ONLY website at which an appeal for a Penalty Fare issued on Merseyrail should be submitted:

Make an Appeal - Penalty Services

www.penaltyservices.co.uk

 

[ServerHoster]

Just to add, the day saver doesn’t actually have a 16-17 saver discount. Rather this is just a general “young persons discount” that anyone aged 18 or under can use regardless of if they have a railcard or not. https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/daily-travel/day-saver/

Child / Young Person (5-18yrs) 1 Area £2.20 All Areas £2.95

 

[185143]

I was issued with a child Saveaway instead of a 16-18 one in error a few years ago (when I was entitled to one) at Liverpool South Parkway.

Realised a few hours into my day, went to the ticket office at Liverpool Central to ask what to do and was told not to worry about it as it was the same price.

Definitely appeal.

 

[scrapy]

If the penalty fare is appealed, yet the appeal is unsuccessful then I believe the fare is then a civil debt owed to Merseyrail. Can this debt legally be enforced against someone under 18?

 

[Red Rover]

To get the 16-18 discount you need to provide ID ie, passport, provisional license or merseyrail own ID card (there are also others), on occasions when people don’t have these they ask for a child to circumvent the requirements for a 16-18 ticket.
Youths still buy children’s tickets not knowing they’re entitled to a 16-18.

 

[gray1404]

In that case I would appeal on the basis that the traveller had a valid ticket. The traveller was 17 and Merseyrail terms and conditions state that a person of that age can travel on a young persons priced Merseyrail day saver. Therefore a valid ticket was held and should have been accepted.

See https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/young-person-tickets/

When appealing I would provide the above link, proof of age and a copy of the original ticket. If the appeal is upheld (either at the first, second of third appeal - it is often necessary to go to the third stage before commonsense prevails) I would then seek a refund of the additional ticket the traveler was forced to purchase for the return journey from Merseyrail Customer Relations taking it to the Rail Ombudsman if needed.

The above webpage confirms that the ticket they were traveling on was valid for their age and that the rail card that they had is even accepted as valid ID for the ticket held if requested at the purchase point or on inspection.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm a bit confused about what tickets the OP perhaps held and what the PF was.

To the OP can you please post the documentation requested and we can be sure?

 

[gray1404]

It sounds like it was a Young Persons Day Saver which the Merseyrail website lists as £2.95 for a young person 5-18 all zone one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It sounds like it was a Young Persons Day Saver which the Merseyrail website lists as £2.95 for a young person 5-18 all zone one.

I don't have much time for Merseyrail RPIs given a recent experience with one myself who didn't appear to know what a Saveaway was, but if that's actually true that's a whole other level of gross incompetence. I think we therefore need to see the evidence of what exactly did happen, i.e. the PF and if it's still held the ticket.

 

[Foxcover]

Indeed in the early days of the Saver people were instructed to buy child tickets until the issuing mechanisms were updated to allow the Saver to be selected. I don't know why they didn't stick with that.

I can vouch for that. On more than one occasion Hamilton Square could‘t find the 16-17 saver option for my daughter, and issued her a child fare, on their own initiative, instead. I recall immediately informing their twitter team once she’d told me, in case she had problems with RPIs.

 

[danm14]

I'm a bit confused about what tickets the OP perhaps held and what the PF was.

Presumably they had one of these at Child rate: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=CTR&dest=I375&rte=186&tkt=MSV

Instead of one of these: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=CTR&dest=I375&rte=186&tkt=MSW

 

[gray1404]

Agreed.

I can vouch for that. On more than one occasion Hamilton Square could‘t find the 16-17 saver option for my daughter, and issued her a child fare, on their own initiative, instead. I recall immediately informing their twitter team once she’d told me, in case she had problems with RPIs.

Can you provide a copy of their tweet reply? Might be useful here.

 

[Foxcover]

Tweet to Merseyrail: (April 2022)
‘Hi, Hamilton Square just refused to acknowledge the 16-17 Saver railcard again, saying it isn’t valid on Merseyrail and just down south. That’s a new one! They have issued her a child ticket even though she is 17. Letting you know as it obv still needs sorting out & in case my daughter gets stopped by RPI for travelling on a child ticket.‘

Reply from Merseyrail:
‘Hello, I'm really sorry that this has happened again. I have spoken to the member of staff on duty in regards to this and it appears there was some confusion with the ticket requested unfortunately. I'm really sorry for this, please do ask your daughter to ask any revenue protection offices to speak to Hamilton Square if questioned. Very sorry again for the confusion and any upset caused to your daughter.’

The reason this seems to be part of a longer conversation is that my daughter regularly got refused discounts with a 16-17 saver, or was told she could only have 1/3 off, or was told she couldn’t use it at peak times, all on Merseyrail and at the big stations, and each time I fed it back to the social media team, so we had a reasonably long history.

 

[TCharn]

It sounds like it was a Young Persons Day Saver which the Merseyrail website lists as £2.95 for a young person 5-18 all zone one.

It was a child’s day saver not a 16-18 day saver, they are different tickets and you do need to be 15 to purchase a child ticket but they are the same price and are identical in their area use and in every other way other than the fact one says child on it. I will appeal once I have a look at Chester station and see what information it shows about the child tickets because if the information is not shown I will say that she was unaware due to the lack of information at the station and also quote the link where it says the ticket prices are the same that you gave me https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/young-person-tickets/ and hopefully that will give me the best chance of getting the appeal overturned. I’ll post my draft appeal here and also show a photo of the ticket she bought at moorfields later that evening hopefully we get it overturned and thank you to everyone on this thread for your help. We’re not in any rush because correct me if I’m wrong but the £58 fare and the 21 day limit before it becomes £108 is frozen once the appeal is made so we have some time.

Presumably they had one of these at Child rate: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=CTR&dest=I375&rte=186&tkt=MSV

Instead of one of these: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=CTR&dest=I375&rte=186&tkt=MSW

It was an all area child day saver on merseyrail which is the identical price to the 16-18 one

I don't have much time for Merseyrail RPIs given a recent experience with one myself who didn't appear to know what a Saveaway was, but if that's actually true that's a whole other level of gross incompetence. I think we therefore need to see the evidence of what exactly did happen, i.e. the PF and if it's still held the ticket.

They are different tickets technically and are different buttons on the machine but on the website they are listed as one ticket which makes sense because they are the same price and do the same thing so if they just had one ticket option they’d avoid the confusion and accidental fines but they’re probably not concerned about that because they want the money lol https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/young-person-tickets/ when I next see her I’ll get the fine and post it

 

[WesternLancer]

Since my earlier post it def looks like @TCharn has some plausible points to make an Appeal. Just getting those points clearly constructed will be worth doing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Since my earlier post it def looks like @TCharn has some plausible points to make an Appeal. Just getting those points clearly constructed will be worth doing.

Also worth checking the wording and presence of the Penalty Fares posters, which could be wrong as a lot are.

 

[Red Rover]

Did the RPI ask if the person had ID entitling them to travel using the 16-18 daysaver? If so then a good chance of it being rescinded, if there was no ID produced then an adult fare would have needed to have been purchased.

Also on S&B TVM’s when purchasing a child’s ticket it’s states in brackets 5-15, the adult 16-18 day saver is on the adult screen.

 

[TCharn]

Here is the penalty fare, the reason issues is being an 05 adult on a child day saver but in the adult/child information she is listed as a child which makes no sense at all and is a complete contradiction, i am going to get some photos of the PF information at chester train station because i dont think there is much and then draft an appeal

 

[Red Rover]

Because I’d guess the software doesn’t do 16-18 so has to do a child.
I’ll reiterate if bought from a machine you have to go to that specific one, ie a child (which states 5-15) or an adult window and it’ll offer 16-18.
Did this person have any ID on them?

 

[TCharn]

Because I’d guess the software doesn’t do 16-18 so has to do a child.
I’ll reiterate if bought from a machine you have to go to that specific one, ie a child (which states 5-15) or an adult window and it’ll offer 16-18.
Did this person have any ID on them?

no they had no id on them, is it not also a defence that she would not consider herself an adult in any other legal metric because she is under the age of 18 so why on a ticket machine would she actively choose the adult section in order to find a 16-18 ticket when she is considered a child legally

Because I’d guess the software doesn’t do 16-18 so has to do a child.
I’ll reiterate if bought from a machine you have to go to that specific one, ie a child (which states 5-15) or an adult window and it’ll offer 16-18.
Did this person have any ID on them?

Also apparently there isn't a 16-18 daysaver option on the chester ticket machine but ill confirm with evidence when i get it.

 

[Red Rover]

If they had no ID on them the only ticket they were entitled to travel on is an adult fare unfortunately.

If the TVM doesn’t sell the full range of tickets then I guess they’ll full back on was the ticket office open, was it open?

 

[TCharn]

If they had no ID on them the only ticket they were entitled to travel on is an adult fare unfortunately.

If the TVM doesn’t sell the full range of tickets then I guess they’ll full back on was the ticket office open, was it open?

yes however she would've missed her train had she not used the machine as it was very busy