Bought wrong ticket type - £103 fine!

[Ak1992]

A month ago I bought a couple of tickets for me and my girlfriend from lime street to Manchester Piccadilly. Would’ve been £12 but I used my two-together railcard and they were £8.

Got to the barrier and realised when scanning them that my two together annual railcard had expired a couple of weeks earlier. Explained to the guy that I didn’t realise it had expired (app still lets you select the option and didn’t notify me the railcard had expired) and he was nice about it and said I’d probably have to pay a small fee and cover the difference in ticket price.

Got a letter in the post asking me to confirm what had happened so I explained it all. Got another letter today saying I now need to pay £103!

£90 plus £13 for price of tickets (even thought I paid £8 for the £12 tickets already)

This seems absolutely insane! Considering my railcard had only just expired, the saving was £2 per ticket, and I had to go through a barrier where you always have to show your ticket - so I would have had zero chance of being able to get away with doing this intentionally.

Is there anything I can do to reduce this? Anyone I can contact or anything I can tell them to help my case? I’ve been buying tickets for years and never done anything like this before and it was a genuinely honest mistake. Just seems such a ridiculous fee based on the ticket price/difference.

Thanks

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum.

In practice, the best thing to do, is to pay up and chalk it up to experience.

In rather more detail: the law for railway ticketing is clear - if you can buy the right ticket before travelling then you must. If you don’t buy the right ticket, then the law treats you as having no ticket and that’s a criminal offence - the railway can take you to court, and they will win, leaving you with a fine plus court costs plus compensation for the train ticket you should have bought plus (arguably) something that you have to declare if you want a visa to go to the USA. So the railway are in a strong position to ask you to pay money to avoid having to go to court.

There are arguments to be had about whether the law is fair and whether the railway is using it in a fair manner. But to use these arguments in your favour you would have to be prepared to take the time, stress and expense of going to court, almost certainly losing at the magistrates and then appealing to a higher court. It may be most practical to pay up and move on.

 

[Skymonster]

In practice, the best thing to do, is to pay up and chalk it up to experience.

It isn’t clear that @Ak1992 went through the barrier and boarded a train before realising the railcard had expired. If the barrier / conversation in question was at the end of the journey, at Manchester Picc, then this advice is prudent. However, if the OP was accosted / had the conversation with railway staff before going through the barrier and boarding a train at Lime Street then surely there is no “crime” to answer for - it is not against the rules / bylaws to buy an invalid ticket, only to use it (which usually means actually boarding a train or being in a compulsory ticket area).

 

[Ak1992]

I did use the ticket. It was only when I scanned it at the Manchester end barrier that I noticed the railcard had expired.

If I have to pay it then I have three questions:

Why do I have to pay the full £13 when I’ve already paid £8? Surely my punishment for having the wrong ticket is the £90!

Is it worth calling up anyone or trying to reason with a person?

If I have to pay, can I manage to do it via payment plan?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I did use the ticket. It was only when I scanned it at the Manchester end barrier that I noticed the railcard had expired

Afraid you're "bang to rights" there, then, as you travelled with a non valid ticket. As @Fawkes Cat has already mentioned upthread, best just to settle up and move on.

And maybe also renew your railcard if you've not already done so.

 

[swt_passenger]

Afraid you're "bang to rights" there, then, as you travelled with a non valid ticket. As @Fawkes Cat has already mentioned upthread, best just to settle up and move on.

And maybe also renew your railcard if you've not already done so.

Perhaps, looking on the positive side, as explained in the initial post they seem to have only charged one £90 admin fee for two people…

 

[8A Rail]

It isn’t clear that @Ak1992 went through the barrier and boarded a train before realising the railcard had expired. If the barrier / conversation in question was at the end of the journey, at Manchester Picc, then this advice is prudent. However, if the OP was accosted / had the conversation with railway staff before going through the barrier and boarding a train at Lime Street then surely there is no “crime” to answer for - it is not against the rules / bylaws to buy an invalid ticket, only to use it (which usually means actually boarding a train or being in a compulsory ticket area).

That depends on what train the OP went on though which will dictate what part of Lime Street Station he departed from. Given it was Manchester Piccadilly being the Ops final destination then he more than likely boarded a train on one of the platforms from six to ten which is an open concourse area. Had it been between platforms one and five then would of gone through a gated / manned area for sure.

 

[crablab]

Why do I have to pay the full £13 when I’ve already paid £8?

Because the ticket you purchased was invalid (as you weren't entitled to the discount), and so it is treated as if you had no ticket.

You're now being offered the chance to buy the correct ticket for your journey.

Surely my punishment for having the wrong ticket is the £90!

This covers administrative costs for the railway company in dealing with this matter and collecting the correct fare that was due. It's not a 'penalty' as such.

Is it worth calling up anyone or trying to reason with a person?

I really don't think so. You have (although it may sound trivial in your circumstances) broken the law, and the railway company is inviting you to resolve the matter with them before they take it to court. If you scroll through the rest of the 'Disputes' section on here you will find many other people who would jump for the chance to pay up, instead of being taken to court!

They are under no obligation to offer you this option.

If this goes to court, the question the magistrate will be asking is whether you had a valid ticket for your journey. You did not.

If I have to pay, can I manage to do it via payment plan?

That might be something to ask them, although it is probably advisable to just pay it rather than negotiate.

 

[BRX]

I didn’t realise it had expired (app still lets you select the option and didn’t notify me the railcard had expired)

Which app is this?

 

[jamiearmley]

Which app is this?

None of the ticket buying apps require proof of railcard when a railcard discount is applied.

None of the ticket buying apps lay claim to notifying you of an expired railcard, and are not expected to do so.

The railcard app may do so , but that is not linked to ticket purchase.

Sadly, designed without logic or a basic understanding of human nature.

 

[BRX]

None of the ticket buying apps require proof of railcard when a railcard discount is applied.

None of the ticket buying apps lay claim to notifying you of an expired railcard, and are not expected to do so.

The railcard app may do so , but that is not linked to ticket purchase.

Yes that's what I thought.

I also thought that ticket barriers never require you to "scan" a railcard - just the tickets, so I don't understand why the OP's lack of railcard got picked up at that point.

 

[Haywain]

I also thought that ticket barriers never require you to "scan" a railcard - just the tickets, so I don't understand why the OP's lack of railcard got picked up at that point.

Probably because the barrier can be set to reject a railcard discounted ticket, or to highlight a discount so that revenue staff can carry out a check.

 

[Watershed]

I also thought that ticket barriers never require you to "scan" a railcard - just the tickets, so I don't understand why the OP's lack of railcard got picked up at that point.

Because the OP did not pass through an automatic barrier. They passed through a 'manned' barrier, where staff often (if not always) ask for Railcards to be shown.

 

[Haywain]

Because the OP did not pass through an automatic barrier. They passed through a 'manned' barrier, where staff often (if not always) ask for Railcards to be shown.

That doesn’t appear to be the case:

It was only when I scanned it at the Manchester end barrier

 

[py_megapixel]

At Piccadilly, tickets are now scanned even at the manned barriers - the staff appear to have an Android app to do it.

 

[Haywain]

At Piccadilly, tickets are now scanned even at the manned barriers - the staff appear to have an Android app to do it.

It doesn't really matter, other than to address @BRX's curiosity about how it got picked up. And the answer to that is that there are various ways it could be picked up.

 

[Snow1964]

Why do I have to pay the full £13 when I’ve already paid £8?

The £13 is the price of a replacement valid ticket, they are basing it on you not having a valid ticket, in other words the wrong ticket being cancelled and refunded.

This is a sore point from a customer point of view, as they could (but choose not to), offer to refund the other ticket at same time.

Surely my punishment for having the wrong ticket is the £90!

This is correct, if it a flat admin fee, but unlike say a parking fee which offers you a discount if you accept and pay quickly, the railway company charges you same regardless of if admin is one standard letter and automated payment system, or if you appeal and lot more admin time is needed

Basically you are being asked to subsidise those that end up going back and forth and get 2 or 3 letters for same admin fee. I too agree this approach is unjust. Especially if they wouldn’t accept you paying the difference at the time (so there was no admin fee).

 

[class68fan]

I did use the ticket. It was only when I scanned it at the Manchester end barrier that I noticed the railcard had expired.

If I have to pay it then I have three questions:

Why do I have to pay the full £13 when I’ve already paid £8? Surely my punishment for having the wrong ticket is the £90!

Is it worth calling up anyone or trying to reason with a person?

If I have to pay, can I manage to do it via payment plan?

It is tough but pay up and the problem has gone away.

Don't try negotiating a payment plan, they might change their mind and go to court. If you have a credit card or overdraft use that, maybe a friend or family can give you a sub.

 

[Doubleplus]

None of the ticket buying apps require proof of railcard when a railcard discount is applied.

None of the ticket buying apps lay claim to notifying you of an expired railcard, and are not expected to do so.

Given that the ticket vending machines (at least in this neck of the woods) put on such a big show of “PLEASE CONFIRM that you are in possession of a valid railcard by pressing OK” (or similar) when trying to buy a ticket with a railcard, I’m almost surprised that all ‘authorised ticket vendors‘ in the shape of apps and websites are not also required to elicit a similar undertaking from the buyer.

 

[spag23]

Given that the ticket vending machines (at least in this neck of the woods) put on such a big show of “PLEASE CONFIRM that you are in possession of a valid railcard by pressing OK” (or similar) when trying to buy a ticket with a railcard, I’m almost surprised that all ‘authorised ticket vendors‘ in the shape of apps and websites are not also required to elicit a similar undertaking from the buyer.

If only the TOCs were to push the vendors to introduce this simple facility, it would save their RPIs from harvesting so much money in penalties.

 

[Master29]

A month ago I bought a couple of tickets for me and my girlfriend from lime street to Manchester Piccadilly. Would’ve been £12 but I used my two-together railcard and they were £8.

Got to the barrier and realised when scanning them that my two together annual railcard had expired a couple of weeks earlier. Explained to the guy that I didn’t realise it had expired (app still lets you select the option and didn’t notify me the railcard had expired) and he was nice about it and said I’d probably have to pay a small fee and cover the difference in ticket price.

Got a letter in the post asking me to confirm what had happened so I explained it all. Got another letter today saying I now need to pay £103!

£90 plus £13 for price of tickets (even thought I paid £8 for the £12 tickets already)

This seems absolutely insane! Considering my railcard had only just expired, the saving was £2 per ticket, and I had to go through a barrier where you always have to show your ticket - so I would have had zero chance of being able to get away with doing this intentionally.

Is there anything I can do to reduce this? Anyone I can contact or anything I can tell them to help my case? I’ve been buying tickets for years and never done anything like this before and it was a genuinely honest mistake. Just seems such a ridiculous fee based on the ticket price/difference.

Thanks

It might appear harsh, but the best advice is to pay and chalk it up. Ultimately it is your responsibility to check whether your railcard has expired or not. The "It only expired weeks ago" line won't cut any cheese with a magistrate. You can ask about whether you can pay it off in instalments but as has already been said it's probably unlikely they will allow this as they are offering you a way out of this proceeding to the courts and to be honest, this is the best way.

 

[class68fan]

If only the TOCs were to push the vendors to introduce this simple facility, it would save their RPIs from harvesting so much money in penalties.

It might make people think twice but if they think their card is in date or in their wallet it won't solve the problem.

 

[spag23]

Good point. So let's design the app to ask the purchaser to acknowledge (tick) that they need to buy a Railcard (if no expiry entered),or renew one that will otherwise be out of date.

 

[Haywain]

Good point. So let's design the app to ask the purchaser to acknowledge (tick) that they need to buy a Railcard (if no expiry entered),or renew one that will otherwise be out of date.

Does that mean if they later forget to buy or renew a railcard everything will be OK?

 

[spag23]

The purchaser would be on record as having been told to buy/renew a Railcard, and as having ticked a box to positively acknowledge this notice. If they fail to act on all of this, it certainly won't be "OK". You can take a horse to water......
But at least it should drastically reduce the number of "No Railcard held" incidents referred to this forum.

 

[BRX]

At its most simple, it could be a popup saying "please confirm your railcard will be current for the travel dates".

Or it probably wouldn't require the greatest minds in programming to give smartphone apps the ability to remember that the account holder has a certain type of railcard, and to know the expiry date. This could be entered manually on first use. Then it could flag a warning that a railcard will have expired on a desired travel date, if the user tries to book a ticket with a railcard discount.

 

[Jordmurray23]

I paid for a railcard but NEVER get asked for it, does anyone know why ticket inspectors never ask?

 

[James H]

I present my railcard with my tickets for inspection as a matter of course.

 

[L401CJF]

I paid for a railcard but NEVER get asked for it, does anyone know why ticket inspectors never ask?

From my experience, its very rare anybody has it ready for inspection. If you wait for every person with a railcard to load it up on their app, or dig it out of their bag, it takes forever to get through the train. In the mean time those with no ticket at all just jumping a stop or 2 have got a free ride. I usually ask at random throughout the day.

I see no reason for gateline staff or ticket office staff not to ask though. When somebody asks me for a ticket with a railcard discount I won't sell it until I've checked the railcard.

 

[kristiang85]

In SWR land, I'm always asked at the gates for the Railcard when my ticket is rejected (it does this at certain times), but I'm never asked on the train even during ticket checks.