Boundary Zone 6 ticket extension validity

[General Zod]

Apologies if this question has already been asked but if you have a Z1-6 Travelcard and you want to travel to a station way beyond the last station in Zone 6 does you train have to stop at the "Boundary 6" station for your extension ticket to be valid. If I had a One Day Travelcard from High Wycombe and wanted to travel to Southampton Central would my BZ6 - Southampton "extension" return ticket mean that I have to catch a train that stops at the last BZ6 station or can I catch a fast non-stop ( except Clapham Junction) train ?

 

[RJ]

The train does not have to stop at the boundary station. It's a valid ticket combo for a through train.

 

[yorkie]

The main purpose of Boundary Zone x tickets is to avoid the need to call at the boundary station. Obviously if you're on a Travelcard season it doesn't matter. In reality, as mentioned on here a week or so ago, many TOCs don't seem to mind tickets with a named station, I've even been issued them when asking for Boundary Zone 6, but strictly speaking it should be from Boundary Zone x rather than a named station, for a Day Travelcard on a 'fast' train.

 

[redreni]

The main purpose of Boundary Zone x tickets is to avoid the need to call at the boundary station. Obviously if you're on a Travelcard season it doesn't matter. In reality, as mentioned on here a week or so ago, many TOCs don't seem to mind tickets with a named station, I've even been issued them when asking for Boundary Zone 6, but strictly speaking it should be from Boundary Zone x rather than a named station, for a Day Travelcard on a 'fast' train.

That's what I've always thought. I do that type of journey a fair bit. However, recently I was travelling from Slough to London with a zone 1-3 travelcard, asked for a ticket to Boundary Zone 3, and only noticed when I was on the train that I had been sold a ticket to Ealing Broadway. Ealing Broadway isn't even the first station in zone 3 on the Great Western line - West Ealing is. I suspected I'd been overcharged (which I found when I checked that I had by about 80p) and, because it wasn't the first time it had happened, I wrote to FGW to complain. They have replied saying:

(a) that, essentially, the onus is on the customer to memorise the entire National Fares Manual and not on their employee to sell the customer the right ticket, even if specifically asked to do so by the customer (no surprise there), and

(b) "Although you are correct that a ticket from Slough to Boundary Zone 3 is £4.70, in order to purchase this fare you must be travelling on a service that stops at the first station within zone 3, which is West Ealing. As there are no direct trains to West Ealing from Slough, this ticket was not available to you and so you were correctly sold a ticket to Ealing Broadway, as this is the first stop within zone 3. So whilst both Boundary tickets and point-to-point tickets can be used in conjunction with your travelcard, the Boundary ticket can only be purchased if you are travelling on a service that calls at the Boundary station."

I can't see how (b) can possibly be correct. It not only contradicts RJ and Yorkie , but it also condradicts the practice followed without exception by (in my experience) NXEA, Southern, South Eastern and Chiltern, all of whom sell either Boundary Zone x or point-to-point tickets as travelcard extensions even where the train does not stop at the relevant station. If correct, it would also make Boundary Zone tickets redundant. If (b) is correct, though, then clearly on the FGW interpretation the High Wycombe-Southampton journey on a Boundary Zone 6 ticket using a fast train out of Waterloo is not permited either (presumably a more expensive Clapham Junction-Southampton ticket would be needed?)

The letter gives no evidence and makes no reference to the fares manual or any other document to back itself up, so it sounds rather like a case of FGW overcharging and then plucking an excuse out of the air, arrogantly assuming it will just be accepted.

Does anyone have anything authoritative on this one way or t'other?

 

[MikeWh]

I might be wrong but I thought that boundary zone tickets could only be sold within the travelcard area. If you were starting your journey outside then you purchase a ticket including the zones required (ie Slough to Z456). I guess the assumption is that you wouldn't have a travelcard already if you are starting outside the zones.

 

[redreni]

I might be wrong but I thought that boundary zone tickets could only be sold within the travelcard area. If you were starting your journey outside then you purchase a ticket including the zones required (ie Slough to Z456). I guess the assumption is that you wouldn't have a travelcard already if you are starting outside the zones.

As I say, I do this type of journey quite a bit. You can buy boundary zone tickets from outside London, although it is sometimes harder to persuade the ticket office staff to sell them than it is if you buy them in London. But surely it can't be that uncommon for Londoners to go out of town and stay the night, and therefore need a ticket the next day from somewhere outside London to the zone boundary of their travelcard? I surely can't be the only one who does it?

In any case, if boundary zone tickets could not be sold outside London, would FGW not just state this in their letter? I'm sure you'll agree, it would have been a much better excuse (if true) than the one they've actually managed to cook up?

 

[Traveller]

It always used to be the case that Boundary Zone tickets could only be issued from a boundary, not to a boundary.

 

[penaltyfines]

Slightly off-topic, but why are boundary zone tickets limited in their destinations?

i.e. I can't buy a BZ2 to Edinburgh....?

 

[redreni]

It always used to be the case that Boundary Zone tickets could only be issued from a boundary, not to a boundary.

Well, perhaps that's officially still the rule and I've just managed to get away with it a few times. It's hard to follow the logic of that rule, though, and of course it's hard to see why the fares manual allows tickets to be sold with boundary zones as a destination if such tickets aren't valid.

But anyway, that's not what FGW are saying. They're saying that a SLO - BZ3 ticket would have been valid if and only if I used a train that stopped at West Ealing (which in my case would have meant changing at Hayes and picking up a slower train, but of course it doesn't follow that they had any way of knowing that I wasn't going to do that (perhaps I was going to break my journey at Hanwell), and neither does it follow that they knew I would necessarily travel on a train that stopped at Ealing Broadway, so even on their own account they still sold me the wrong ticket).

But if they're correct, the requirement for the train to stop at the boundary station presumably works in both directions, so must mean if I travel on a fast, non-stop train from Paddington to Slough then I must buy a ticket from Paddington to Slough, which could easily double or triple the price of the ticket compared to a BZ3 - SLO ticket.

Just come across this five-year-old thread in which Yorkie reveals that this is not the first time FGW have tried to impose this restriction. Would be interested to know how that one was resolved? Were FGW able to produce the relevant clause from the conditions of carriage or the fares manual, or any other evidence to show that they weren't simply making it up as they went along?

http://www.railforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=547

 

[penaltyfines]

I've had problems relating to this with FGW very recently.

Their gateline staff, some of their ticket office staff, and some of their train manager staff have not received sufficient training or are mistaken in their understanding of the CoC.

If you buy a boundary zone extension ticket, there is no requirement for the train to stop AT ALL in any part of the extension.

E.g. Travelcard (Z123), BZ3 to Slough ticket - you can travel from Paddington direct to Slough with no stops.

Simples!

 

[redreni]

I've had problems relating to this with FGW very recently.

Their gateline staff, some of their ticket office staff, and some of their train manager staff have not received sufficient training or are mistaken in their understanding of the CoC.

If you buy a boundary zone extension ticket, there is no requirement for the train to stop AT ALL in any part of the extension.

E.g. Travelcard (Z123), BZ3 to Slough ticket - you can travel from Paddington direct to Slough with no stops.

Simples!

Well that certainly was my understanding too, and as far as I've always been aware there has never been any question about it before, but FGW are now all of a sudden refusing to accept it. They've written to me and explicitly said so.

My worry is that if the CoC are silent on this, there may be some smart-arse at FGW who has worked out that if they can just re-interpret the rules so that BZ tickets are treated like split-ticketed through journeys, then FGW can effectively stop accepting travelcards for journeys that are only partly covered by the travelcard (except where the train stops at the switchover point between the travelcard and the boundary ticket), and make passengers double-pay for some or all of the portion of the train journey covered by the travelcard. I'm concerned that, without proof that FGW's interpretation is wrong, all the operators will start to do it, and under a Tory government the regulators will take great pleasure in helping them to get away with it. We're going to have enough problems with inflation-busting increases to regulated fares, without having to put up with this kind of stealth increase as well.

I don't necessarily think it's poor training - until I see something authoritative in writing stating that combinations of BZ tickets and travelcards are treated differently than combinations of two or more point-to-point tickets when used on non-stopping trains, then I'm concerned that FGW and others will just stick to their guns, which will make BZ tickets unusable 95% of the time.

 

[penaltyfines]

National Rail Conditions of Carriage

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

simples

 

[redreni]

Alright, thanks. I will write to them pointing out that there is no requirement for the train to stop at the switchover point because CoC I.A.19(a) applies. I suspect they will argue that a ticket from Slough to BZ 3 is not a zonal ticket.

The CoC define a zonal ticket as one which permits travel only within a defined area. It's an interesting argument.

My Z1-3 travelcard is also a season ticket, but I'm not sure if it's excluded from the ambit of 19(c) as it is issued on behalf of TFL? Is TFL a passanger transport executive? It is an associate member of something called the Passenger Transport Executive Group, but it's not on their list of Passanger Transport Executives. So I would say on that basis 19(c) definitely applies if even if 19(a) does not.

Thanks again for the pointer. I will let you know how I get on.

 

[yorkie]

Just come across this five-year-old thread in which Yorkie reveals that this is not the first time FGW have tried to impose this restriction. Would be interested to know how that one was resolved? Were FGW able to produce the relevant clause from the conditions of carriage or the fares manual, or any other evidence to show that they weren't simply making it up as they went along?

http://www.railforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=547

Bizarrely I can't actually remember that incident at all!

On a separate occasion recall once going for a HST from Waterloo and asked the guard if we could extend our Travelcards on board, he said yes, and he sold them from West Drayton even though we were going via Feltham. I think he did this as it was cheaper. He was a good, friendly guard.

 

[penaltyfines]

Alright, thanks. I will write to them pointing out that there is no requirement for the train to stop at the switchover point because CoC I.A.19(a) applies. I suspect they will argue that a ticket from Slough to BZ 3 is not a zonal ticket.

The CoC define a zonal ticket as one which permits travel only within a defined area. It's an interesting argument.

My Z1-3 travelcard is also a season ticket, but I'm not sure if it's excluded from the ambit of 19(c) as it is issued on behalf of TFL? Is TFL a passanger transport executive? It is an associate member of something called the Passenger Transport Executive Group, but it's not on their list of Passanger Transport Executives. So I would say on that basis 19(c) definitely applies if even if 19(a) does not.

Thanks again for the pointer. I will let you know how I get on.

TfL is not a PTE. Note a season ticket is a ticket valid for 7 days or more.

(b) is there for the purpose of Boundary Zone fares, so it definitely does apply

 

[MikeWh]

Slough to BZ3 is a zonal ticket because it allows unlimited travel within zones 4-6 as well as a journey from Slough to BZ6 (and back if return).

 

[penaltyfines]

Slough to BZ3 is a zonal ticket because it allows unlimited travel within zones 4-6 as well as a journey from Slough to BZ6 (and back if return).

Didn't know about the unlimited travel part....

How does that work for a Saver Return? One could (illegally) travel around in Zones 4-6 for 30 days on the return portion until it is physically endorsed with a date stamp....?

 

[transportphoto]

Slough to BZ3 is a zonal ticket because it allows unlimited travel within zones 4-6 as well as a journey from Slough to BZ6 (and back if return).

Sorry but this seems to good to be true.

Where have you sourced this info, is it documented anywhere?

 

[Traveller]

Slough to BZ3 is a zonal ticket because it allows unlimited travel within zones 4-6 as well as a journey from Slough to BZ6 (and back if return).

It doesn't allow unlimited travel. The origin/destination would be Zone R456 if that were the case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Slightly off-topic, but why are boundary zone tickets limited in their destinations?

i.e. I can't buy a BZ2 to Edinburgh....?

Because ex-Intercity companies don't receive any of the revenue from Travelcards. And there'd be no point anyway as there would be no difference in price between the boundary and London Terminal fare.

 

[RJ]

Slough to BZ3 is a zonal ticket because it allows unlimited travel within zones 4-6 as well as a journey from Slough to BZ6 (and back if return).

Extension tickets take the form CDS/CDR/SDS/SDR etc, merely an extension for Travelcard holders to make a single/return trip. It's different from a Slough - London Zones 3 - 6 ADT/ODT ticket which is a Z3-6 Travelcard + one return to Slough.

 

[yorkie]

Boundary Zone X tickets are often only available as origins, not destinations, and generally only available as Day tickets, however I am surprised to see that there are Reading to Boundary Zone 3 SVRs (routed Slough). The saving compared to London Terminals is 30p.

 

[Mojo]

How can you stop at Boundary Zone X anyway, as there is no such station?

 

[Traveller]

How can you stop at Boundary Zone X anyway, as there is no such station?

Don't tell the DafT that otherwise they'll build a load of stations on the boundary of each zone on each line just so trains can call at the boundaries.

 

[jon0844]

Given my recent problem with FCC and now reading about FGW, I wonder if First Group had a meeting on how to earn more money by reinterpreting the rules, or withdrawing additional rights that previous management put in place.

The next thing that will happen is we see a change in the NRCoC and you'll not be allowed extensions at all.

 

[MikeWh]

Slough to BZ3 is a zonal ticket because it allows unlimited travel within zones 4-6 as well as a journey from Slough to BZ6 (and back if return).

It doesn't allow unlimited travel. The origin/destination would be Zone R456 if that were the case.

A thousand apologies for that one. I can't imagine what I must have been thinking about to write that.

I do also have to point out that several years ago I tried to purchase tickets to a BZ and was told that they don't exist. But, if they do indeed exist now, the reason that they might be considered zonal is that you are not limited to a single entry point to the travelcard area. So Reading to BZ6 can use either Slough or Ascot for example. A ticket to a named station would limit you to just the one route.

 

[redreni]

The reason that they might be considered zonal is that you are not limited to a single entry point to the travelcard area. So Reading to BZ6 can use either Slough or Ascot for example. A ticket to a named station would limit you to just the one route.

They could sensibly argue that that would make London Terminals tickets zonal as well. It's an interesting point, as the definition of "Zonal Ticket" in the CoC is so vague that arguably all tickets are zonal. All tickets are only valid in a defined area, namely an area defined as the permitted route or routes between the origin and the destination.

It would then follow that split-ticketing where the train does not stop at the point where you change from one ticket to another is always permitted. Clearly that's not what the CoCs are intending to say, but if you put in a definition as loose as the one for "Zonal Ticket" then you do run the risk of creating a loophole...