Boundary zone 6 to St Albans off-peak return

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by tannedfrog, 13 Jul 2010.

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  1. tannedfrog

    tannedfrog Member

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    I was at Elstree & Borehamwood wanting to go to St Albans
    I've got a zone 1-6 season ticket on Oyster

    So I tried to buy a Boundary zone 6 to St Albans but the seller refused! I could only buy Elstree & Borehamwood to St Albans because he said I was on the boundary.

    So on my return journey on a fast train which went St Albans - West Hampstead - St Pancras, was I travelling without a valid ticket because it didn't stop at Elstree & Borehamwood?

    And another thing am I obliged to touch in and out religiously on my zone 1-6 Oyster?

    Many thanks
     
    Last edited: 13 Jul 2010
  2. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    He's talking nonsense!
    You asked for the right ticket, there's not much more you can do.
    I can see no reason why you should, but someone who is more familiar with Oyster may be able to advise.
     
  3. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    It shouldn't matter as long as the whole journey is within your zones (which it must be for Z1-6). No charge is deducted on touch-in within your zones and the inspector can see your season.
     
  4. tannedfrog

    tannedfrog Member

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    thanks but I was starting from St Albans which in not in the zones
     
  5. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    Sorry, I didn't explain that very well. As your travelcard covers all six zones it won't matter whether you have touched in or not because you wouldn't have a fare deducted if you did. Therefore it is valid in conjunction with a boundary ticket. Had there been any element of PAYG then it would have been a problem.
     
  6. A60K

    A60K Established Member

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    We discovered a few weeks ago that TfL have recently and very quietly changed the Oyster conditions to state that you must touch in and out on all journeys, even if you have a Travelcard.

    I don't this has any practical effect yet, and I doubt many Oyster users actually know it's been added. I wonder however if they are going to enforce this at some point in the future, perhaps removing OEPs at the same time?
     
  7. north

    north Member

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    As you are combining a season and a non-season ticket rule 19c of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage allow you to travel on a train that travels fast through your ticket change over station.


    I'm not sure about this but I was under the impression that you could only buy a Boundary Zone 6 to Real Station ticket but not the other way around (ie - can't buy St Albans to Boundary Zone 6 CDR).
     
  8. londonbridge

    londonbridge Member

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    So how are they going to enforce this,what if you have a travelcard including zone 6 and you want to go down to,say,Redhill or Epsom where you can't touch out?

    Also,this allows me to ask for an explanation on another point,the tramlink posters say if you take the tram to Wimbledon without touching in you will be charged a maximum fare,even if you have a valid travelcard or season ticket,how do they justify this if your card is valid?
     
  9. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    It has a practical effect only if you have an OEP loaded. Someone recently reported (was it here in RAILUK?) that every journey he made on his travelcard produced an entry charge, because of the OEP he'd loaded and not used. Because he never touched out within his travelcard zones, the OEP wasn't ever removed and over a couple of weeks his PAYG balance was emptied...

    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---

    The posters are a simplification, and are basically irrelevant to pax with Oyster travelcards who understand the system.

    But because touching in at Wimbledon on a travelcard season doesn't actually do anything, it's easier not to mention it - makes the wording on the poster more snappy and succinct for those it is aimed at.
     
    Last edited: 15 Jul 2010
  10. londonbridge

    londonbridge Member

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    So:

    a) as long as you don't have an OEP,at the moment it doesn't matter if you were to touch in and then go beyond zone 6 with a ticket from boundary zone 6 to wherever you were going and not touch out?

    and

    b) if you board the tram at,say,Wandle Park with your 3(4,5,6) travelcard and don't touch in,when you touch out at Wimbledon it won't actually deduct the max fare from any payg balance you may have?
     
  11. button_boxer

    button_boxer Established Member

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    You can't touch out if you're outside the zones as there's no reader to touch. The more interesting twist on this one is that if you try and make such a journey when your oyster card does have an OEP then you'll be hit with an entry charge and there's nothing you can do about it as there's no opportunity to touch out. You'd have to get the OEP cleared before you touch in.

    That should be fine, as your travelcard would cover you to exit the underground at Wimbledon.
     
  12. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    As long as it included zone 3.
     
  13. Deerfold

    Deerfold Established Member

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    Sorry to be picky, but there's no "all 6 zones" - there may only be 6 on the way out to St Albans but there's 9 zones (10 if you count "W").
     
  14. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    Point taken. Where I am in the south we ask for an all-zones travelcard and get given 1-6. Also, in terms of Oyster there is now a G as well for the Grays group of stations.
     
  15. button_boxer

    button_boxer Established Member

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    I took "with your 3(4,5,6) travelcard" to include zone 3.
     
  16. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    Not so unfortunately. You can travel on Tramlink with a travelcard including any of zones 3, 4, 5 or 6. You need zone 3 specifically to exit at Wimbledon as that is the zone that the station is in. Unless you have touched in at the start of the tram journey of course, which then allows free exit at Wimbledon.
     
    Last edited: 15 Jul 2010
  17. tannedfrog

    tannedfrog Member

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    so to be absolutely within the rules when using boundary zone tickets, I need to start buying paper season tickets, I guess
     
  18. londonbridge

    londonbridge Member

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    Sorry I didn't make myself clear. A travelcard covering zone 3,or 4,or 5,or 6 is valid on trams. The posters say if you don't touch in when travelling to Wimbledon you'll be charged a maximum fare even if you have a valid travelcard or season ticket. So my question was,if you have,say,a 5 and 6 card and you don't touch in,how do they justify charging a maximum fare when,by the definition above,a 5 and 6 card is valid for the journey you have made?

    A guy I used to work with got the tram to Wimbledon and then a train to Surbiton. He was buying a 3-6 travelcard. In January 2009 when the fares went up there was a printing error on the new fares and tickets poster at tramstops. The section which listed the tram/national rail interchanges and which zone your travelcard needed to cover if changing at that station said zone 4 for Wimbledon. So he started buying a 4-6 card instead and said that if he got caught his argument would be that he was following the guidance on the fares poster and it wasn't his fault if it was wrong! A couple of months later they reprinted the poster correctly but he was still buying a 4-6 card when I left the firm and he never got caught.
     
  19. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    So you touch in at the gateline at Wimbledon. How do TfL know that you haven't accessed Wimbledon and travelled to an ungated station beyond the validity of your travelcard like Barnes? The only way they know that you travelled on the Tram is if you validate on the Tram reader. Otherwise, you get charged the maximum fare "just in case" you've decided to abuse the system.

    Even if your Travelcard only covers Zones 5/6 and you have no credit, you will still be able to touch in at the Wimbledon gateline. Your card will go into arrears (having been charged the Entry Charge) if you next validate at anywhere but the Tram reader on the station.
     
  20. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    There are two issues here. Firstly, the gates at Wimbledon have special programming because of the tram. If you touch out to leave the station and your last activity was to touch in on a tram-stop reader just before getting on the tram then the gates open and no further charge is made. Remember that like buses you only need to touch in on a tram. In reverse they will deduct a maximum fare on entry, but when you touch on the reader next to the tramstop on platform 10 this fare will be adjusted down to the £1.20 tram fare.

    However, these gates are the entry/exit for the whole of Wimbledon station, not just the tramstop. So, if you try to exit without having touched in anywhere else it will do what happens at any station, it will deduct a maximum fare. It has no way of knowing whether you've come from Croydon on the tram or from Barking on the District line. If you have a travelcard which includes zone 3 then it will assume that you're travelling within your zones and let you out. But if it is any other combination of zones 4, 5 or 6 it will have to make a charge.

    You can hopefully see why the posters take the simplified story and say that you must touch in even if you have a valid travelcard, because not all valid for tram travelcards are also valid at Wimbledon station for an incomplete journey.
     
  21. londonbridge

    londonbridge Member

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    Right, I understand that now.

    Another thought. If you have a travelcard for 4,5 or 6 (but not 3) you could touch in on the Wimbledon gateline,then touch on the tram reader,and then get a national rail train back out to the zone(s) where your card is valid and touch out. This way it would think that you had touched in to make a tram journey,and then touched out at a NR station covered by your zones-much like the situation I described with my old workmate going via Wimbledon using a 4-6 card.
     
  22. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    Your card will register an "Entry" at the station where you "finish" your journey. What you've described in the eyes of the Oyster Card is effectively making a tram journey then starting a new journey at another station.

    If using season tickets I always buy a Z1-6 7 Day for £23.80. If I have 0 credit, it is fully de-restricted and has never caused a problem with incomplete journeys etc. even if I don't touch in and out properly. However, if I do have credit, I've known it to charge the maximum fare for irregular travel. It's something I wouldn't notice until the season ticket expires and I find I have a negative balance, because when validating the season ticket should take precedence over PAYG credit. Most bizarre.
     
    Last edited: 17 Jul 2010
  23. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    I doubt it's that clever. It won't expect to see anything else after touch in on the tram, so touch out within the zones on the card will just open the gate. There is always the possibility that you encounter an RPI before you've made it into your zones though, so there is a risk.

    Incidentally, only general validators will register entry if they aren't expecting exit. Those attached to gates will only operate the gate if you're making the expected movement (unless in zones).
     
  24. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    I was working under the assumption that the destination only had validators but no gateline. Indeed the barriers should open regardless in whatever zones the Travelcard covers. This is because touching in is all that is required for a "complete" journey on a tram (just like using the bus) so no journey on the railway will be linked with the validation at a tram stop.

    I agree that in the situation londonbridge describes, a competent RPI who interrogates the card would rightly suspect deliberate fare evasion if they saw a validation at the tram stop at Wimbledon + a Zone 4-6 Travelcard.
     
    Last edited: 17 Jul 2010
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