Boundary Zone tickets, ticket machines and penalty fare zones...

[BRX]

Scenario:

I am at a station, in London zone 2, within a penalty fare area. The ticket office is closed but there are ticket machines. I have a London zones 1 and 2 travelcard but want to travel to somewhere outside London. The ticket I need is from Zone 2 boundary to my destination but I cannot get this from the ticket machine. There is no "permit to travel" machine.

Am I entitled to get on the train without the add-on ticket, given that it is unavailable at the station?

 

[dan_atki]

Am I entitled to get on the train without the add-on ticket, given that it is unavailable at the station?

Yes, the ticket must then be purchased on-board (if there are staff available to do so), at an interchange (if one exists), or at the destination as per the Conditions of Carriage.

 

[BRX]

Would this also apply if I want to go from A to C, have a ticket from A to B and need to buy a ticket from B to C (where B isn't a travel card zone boundary)?

Can I still get on the train, travel through B without getting off and then pay my fare at C - even if this is all within a penalty fare zone?

I know there is a requirement when combining tickets like this that the train has to actually stop at B - does this mean there is an expectation that I get off there and buy the extra ticket - or am I OK to travel straight through (as long as the train does call at that station)?

 

[dan_atki]

There'd certainly be the expectation for you to purchase the ticket before commencing travel otherwise you may be liable as having travelled without a valid ticket.

A ticket could be purchased at station A in your example, between A and B on the train (if staff are available for this), or at B.

It's slightly shaky ground here because instead of buying a B-C you could get your A-B excessed to make it an A-C. You'd be expected to do this at a ticket office at A, on the train (preferably between A and B should there exist staff for this), or at a ticket office at B.

So let's change the scenario slightly, the train is pulling into B and you get a phone call and actually you need to go to C. Obviously no ticket purchasing at A or between A and B could have occurred.

Then you have exactly the same situation as in your original post. The excess can only be issued by a ticket office or on-train staff (if these exist).

A ticket machine cannot issue excesses (and I think it'd be unreasonable for the TOC to make you buy a B-C in such instances when excesses exist!). If a permit to travel machine exists at B then you'd be expected to use it - depending on the size of the station you may even be able to get the same train!

But if there is no permit to travel machine or ticket office at B then I'd say you'd be fine to stay on the train and buy your ticket on board (if staff exist), at an interchange (should you use one), or at the destination (retaining your original ticket to get it excessed).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

:roll: If there was a ticket office open or permit to travel machine working at B, and/or there were on-train staff from which a relevant extension ticket from B to C could be purchased whilst in transit from A to B (and no attempt was made to do so) then if gripped at some point between B and C, it could look as if one was attempting to travel further than the A to B ticket allows, thus leaving one potentially liable to a penalty fare in a penalty fares zone.

 

[jon0844]

I asked this question recently on a FCC online forum, with the situation that I will sometimes need to go on from Hatfield to Welwyn Garden City after work - starting from Old Street.

As a London Underground managed station, they are extremely limited in ticketing facilities - so even when it is open and staffed, I cannot buy an extension ticket. In fact, the only way I could would to be know in the morning and buy it at Hatfield, or travel to King's Cross by tube and start the journey from there.

First confirmed that I am able to travel with my existing ticket and pay at the destination. However, in practice, on both of the occasions that I have done this - and approached the gateline staff (who do carry ticket machines), they've let me out at no extra charge.

The situation may well be different for longer journeys, and indeed any journey where there's not a high probability that the staff have seen me before.

 

[clagmonster]

For the OP's question, I'd say to find the guard/TTI at the first possible opportunity, preferably before boarding the train if possible.
For the second scenario, I'd say buy the excess at station A if there is an open staffed ticket office. If not, and there is a permit to travel machine, use that. If neither exist, try to find the guard before boarding if possible, or at the very least before arrival at station B. The National Conditions of Carriage state:
"3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because
the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start
your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel
that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is
reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these
circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had
bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will
be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel."
which seems to tie in with what I have said.

 

[jon0844]

Old Street (or in fact most FCC stations now, as they've been removed) doesn't have a PTT machine. It's a penalty fare route, because there's no guard - meaning that, under these circumstances, First simply said to travel and pay at the other end.

Also, they're aware of specific stations that can't issue the tickets (i.e. Old Street) so certainly when I approached the gateline staff and explained where I'd come from and what I wanted to do, they didn't argue with me at all.

Your mileage may very well vary considerably!!