Bournemouth/Poole to the West (Was 'Dorchester stations')

[dgl]

]Not sure I'd fancy hanging around Castle Cary for a connection:roll:

Spent around an hour and a half there once when there was disruption (has been visiting my aunt in wellington which annoyingly currently has no station). Already knew I had a little wait and with the train from Taunton being delayed I thought I would have not too long to wait at Castle Cary but not so lucky (Castle Cary being outside the village and having no real facilities esp. late afternoon).

Ended up getting to Dorchester west to find out that lightning had knocked out signals in Weymouth and the train was going no further. Initially no one knew what was happening and taxis got organised in the end. Made for a very long journey for what is not too many miles.

 

[HowardGWR]

Don't know the frustrations of Yeoviltonians well enough

Oh, you would, if, as I, you had attended meetings there on the subject!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The sidings and platform layout could surely facilitate a reversal at Pen Mill for much lower cost and only a little change to the track layout.

That does seem sensible to me (albeit working only from Google maps). The distance between Pen Mill and the proposed Town station isn't that great. Add two chords to allow Waterloo-Exeter trains to reverse at Pen Mill. You have Yeovil properly served, cross-platform connections between the Waterloo-Exeter and Weymouth-Bristol lines, and the possibility of later providing Exeter-Weymouth trains if demand is there. The only cost is a slowing down by perhaps 10 mins or so on Waterloo-Exeter times. (It looks to me like MarkyT's idea would also slow down the Weymouth-Bristol trains, forcing them to reverse too).

I also wonder whether, if reversing is much of an issue, you could then recast services into Waterloo-Yeovil Pen Mill and a new Paddington-Castle Cary-Yeovil-Exeter semi-fast. That has the extra possible bonus in the future that you could finally remove diesels from the Waterloo lines by electrifying only as far as Yeovil, not to Exeter).

(EDIT: I fear this thread definitely needs either a new title or quite a few posts splitting into a new thread)

 

[fairysdad]

That's interesting and the Transport Direct site, when it existed, used to advise the walk across the market car park as a recommended journey. Alright if you (like me) are a John Betjeman type, have all day, and want to experience the delights of the west country towns.

I hope Mark (thanks by the way) has another think about Yeovil and I will come back on this.

I wonder if Mods could consider this as Bournemouth Western Links - or some such title, as then we could cover all the issues that @PhilipF and others are mentioning. I know that Bournemouth booking clerks are sending people via Upwey and Castle Cary westwards to Plymouth as I actually encountered several when doing station counts at Upwey (!!!!). Not an interchange with much in the way of facilities (don't enquire further).

Of course, the ORR picks up none of this sort of nonsense.

Walking between the Dorchesters is still the suggested transfer when traveling from Bournemouth to the West, although I tend to time the trains to change at Upwey instead, usually because I've got luggage and an over-the-bridge change is easier than a walk through the town (uphill!). (Having said that, last time I did it - and the journey which inspired this thread - I changed at Weymouth because I was at Poole stupidly early and just caught the first Westbound train that came along!)

I'm guessing that it's suggested as it's cheaper than going via Southampton, and the times I've had to go that way I've had to change at Bristol for a train back down rather than the 'sensible' option at Westbury, so is a shorter journey overall.

 

[dgl]

Also, I suppose, might it require longer trains from Weymouth? We generally get 2 carriage 150's which can struggle sometimes (esp. past Yeovil).

Also would having a splitting service (ideally for the long journey being cl158's) with one portion going to Bristol and one going Exeter be a viable service or having a fast service that goes Weymouth-Dorchester-Yeovil Pen Mill-Yeovil Junction and then stations as required to Exeter, maiden newton could also be included if needed due to the single line on the HoWL and passing loop at maiden newton.

Also because the service to Bristol is essentially not a lot more than a local stopping service and therefore isn't very fast, maybe a semi-fast service to Bristol would be a good idea as well.

 

[bishdunster]

Walking between the Dorchesters is still the suggested transfer when traveling from Bournemouth to the West, although I tend to time the trains to change at Upwey instead, usually because I've got luggage and an over-the-bridge change is easier than a walk through the town (uphill!). (Having said that, last time I did it - and the journey which inspired this thread - I changed at Weymouth because I was at Poole stupidly early and just caught the first Westbound train that came along!)

I'm guessing that it's suggested as it's cheaper than going via Southampton, and the times I've had to go that way I've had to change at Bristol for a train back down rather than the 'sensible' option at Westbury, so is a shorter journey overall.

Oh yes it is uphill, according to Google Earth West station is a massive 4 metres higher than the South station !!!

 

[swt_passenger]

Amazing that no-one ever built this line in the entire history of the railways. I guess that must have at least saved it from closure under Beeching.

Again, amazing that there is absolutely no mention of such an essential route in any of the recent strategy documents such as RUSs, route plans, HLOS etc etc...

 

[fairysdad]

Oh yes it is uphill, according to Google Earth West station is a massive 4 metres higher than the South station !!!

Seems much more than that... I guess perhaps because the 'bulk' of it is at West's entrance!

 

[HowardGWR]

Seems much more than that... I guess perhaps because the 'bulk' of it is at West's entrance!

I think there must be a mistake somewhere. If one does the 'chord' across from South, one carves into a cutting, south of Dorchester West that would actually pass under Maumbury Road which is itself *above* the line into Dorchester West.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Amazing that no-one ever built this line in the entire history of the railways. I guess that must have at least saved it from closure under Beeching.

Again, amazing that there is absolutely no mention of such an essential route in any of the recent strategy documents such as RUSs, route plans, HLOS etc etc...

Probably not for this thread, but I have spent many happy hours in Dorset Archive (in the old Dorset Regiment barracks) poring over the maps of the rival schemes to take the line west of Dorchester, usually through or either side of Bridport, joining up near Axminster.

I am afraid we have the gauge war to thank for the legacy with which we are left, so the foregoing discussion is concerning an attempt to rectify these huge errors in our history.

I am very pleased that so many others here are interested in finding innovative solutions.

Update: Hopefully the new parallel study involving 'cross border' issues will deal with this
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This is what the NR site says:
The cross-boundary analysis will be a key part of the Long Term Planning Process as it will enable appropriate treatment of cross-boundary services in the route studies.

It will identify strategic requirements and issues for cross-boundary services, for example how best to get freight traffic to Scotland in a post High Speed 2 scenario.

The cross-boundary analysis may remit a route study to make sure that certain cross-boundary services are accommodated, and/or assess the impact of strategic options on “route” services. Feedback from route studies to cross-boundary analysis will be essential and the cross-boundary analysis will be conducted by a standing working group that will be called upon as required.

The programme of cross-boundary studies will be developed to provide timely input into relevant route studies.

Further information including a timetable for the programme will be placed on this page when work on the cross-boundary analysis progresses.

 

[LateThanNever]

I think there must be a mistake somewhere. If one does the 'chord' across from South, one carves into a cutting, south of Dorchester West that would actually pass under Maumbury Road which is itself *above* the line into Dorchester West.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Probably not for this thread, but I have spent many happy hours in Dorset Archive (in the old Dorset Regiment barracks) poring over the maps of the rival schemes to take the line west of Dorchester, usually through or either side of Bridport, joining up near Axminster.

I am afraid we have the gauge war to thank for the legacy with which we are left, so the foregoing discussion is concerning an attempt to rectify these huge errors in our history.

I am very pleased that so many others here are interested in finding innovative solutions.

Update: Hopefully the new parallel study involving 'cross border' issues will deal with this
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This is what the NR site says:
The cross-boundary analysis will be a key part of the Long Term Planning Process as it will enable appropriate treatment of cross-boundary services in the route studies.

It will identify strategic requirements and issues for cross-boundary services, for example how best to get freight traffic to Scotland in a post High Speed 2 scenario.

The cross-boundary analysis may remit a route study to make sure that certain cross-boundary services are accommodated, and/or assess the impact of strategic options on “route” services. Feedback from route studies to cross-boundary analysis will be essential and the cross-boundary analysis will be conducted by a standing working group that will be called upon as required.

The programme of cross-boundary studies will be developed to provide timely input into relevant route studies.

Further information including a timetable for the programme will be placed on this page when work on the cross-boundary analysis progresses.

This all sounds very basic! "Cross boundary"? Are we are devolved and separate? Or is it all one small island - or is the GWR still broad gauge ? Or is this an excuse for stalling 'out of the box' thinking?

 

[drinnicksiding]

That does seem sensible to me (albeit working only from Google maps). The distance between Pen Mill and the proposed Town station isn't that great. Add two chords to allow Waterloo-Exeter trains to reverse at Pen Mill. You have Yeovil properly served, cross-platform connections between the Waterloo-Exeter and Weymouth-Bristol lines, and the possibility of later providing Exeter-Weymouth trains if demand is there. The only cost is a slowing down by perhaps 10 mins or so on Waterloo-Exeter times. (It looks to me like MarkyT's idea would also slow down the Weymouth-Bristol trains, forcing them to reverse too)./QUOTE]

Just accrued the following knowledge: 1) Reversals already possible (subject to signalling) at Yeovil Pen Mill. Just west of the station the lines go back to single, then immediate split again, allowing crossover between both the Yeovil Junction and Weymouth lines and both platforms. 2) last year saw a re signalling at Yeovil with all the semaphores replaced. Anyone know whether signalling now allows reversals? Looks as if a HST could even reverse whilst another train passes at Pen Mill.

How easy would it be to suddenly start running trains between Junction and Pen Mill despite the RUS stating IT should not happen?. Seems drastic to effectively outlaw it.

 

[HowardGWR]

This all sounds very basic! "Cross boundary"? Are we are devolved and separate? Or is it all one small island - or is the GWR still broad gauge ? Or is this an excuse for stalling 'out of the box' thinking?

I think the straitjacket is indeed demonstrated by the division of these studies. The Western one begins it intro (I assume most here have downloaded these 'drafts for consultation') by describing the area of study as a sort of triangle with one point ending at Paddington - not even 'London' but 'Paddington'.

Clearly, much of the area is so describable, but in this age of the passenger orientated railway, people are travelling without any concept of such historical divisions. For the last 50 years, we have been getting in our cars in our driveway and going, well, anywhere. It's time the railway planners caught up.

Very interested in the Yeovil ideas. Did @MarkyT consider the golfers in Yeovil?

 

[dgl]

How easy would it be to suddenly start running trains between Junction and Pen Mill despite the RUS stating IT should not happen?. Seems drastic to effectively outlaw it.

Happens all the time when disruption on the lines to taunton causes trains to be diverted via castle cary-pen mill-junction an then on the WoE to Exeter (only stops at junction I believe).
Also RTT shows some SWT ECS movements from junction to Westbury using the connecting line.

 

[Morgsie]

Given this has been renamed suggesting Poole and Bournemouth to the West then a more direct but longer journey would go via Southampton and Salisbury

 

[MarkyT]

Very interested in the Yeovil ideas. Did @MarkyT consider the golfers in Yeovil?

The golf course is already divided by the existing railway. By the looks of it my new earthworks for the Town - Pen Mill curve would build over two of the existing holes but replacements might be positioned elsewhere nearby, and I don't obstruct the existing access paths between the two main parts of the course! Note also that I took a different alignment than the historic Pen Mill - Town connection to line up better with the new station site. This also has the advantage of retaining most of the current footpath along the old route.

 

[HowardGWR]

The golf course is already divided by the existing railway. By the looks of it my new earthworks for the Town - Pen Mill curve would build over two of the existing holes but replacements might be positioned elsewhere nearby, and I don't obstruct the existing access paths between the two main parts of the course! Note also that I took a different alignment than the historic Pen Mill - Town connection to line up better with the new station site. This also has the advantage of retaining most of the current footpath along the old route.

Good man and I think the car park beyond the bridge, westwards, could form a station entrance and pull up facility, indeed it would have to do so. This might lead to the need for an extra multi storey somewhere. The area you use, is a very sensitive one and led to a major bust-up between green activists and the then MP (paddy Ashdown). I'm not sure whether 'Yellowham Hill Sainsbury' googling would bring it up, but the footpath, which, as you point out was along the line from Pen Mill to Town, is environmentally sacred.

I think the jury is out between a new Town and an expanded Pen Mill. Town is good if a new level of local services for shoppers and workers from the Axminster, Gillingham or Weymouth directions would be envisaged, but I think the real problem there is that for workers, they needed the line to continue to Hendford, where the major Yeovil industry is situated. I just don't see the volumes for that, to be honest.

A new Town does offer comparison shoppers a good connection, but Yeovil shopping is no great shakes. Why go from Maiden Newton to Yeovil, when you could equally go to Weymouth?

The gap in service provision is to my mind inter-urban in character and Bournemouth to Exeter or Bristol via Salisbury is just not good enough and misses out the Weymouth and Dorchester area. Even at express speeds (not provided at present) the time taken is just not on, except for those who are prevented from travelling by other means.

I don't see a great time penalty between a new Town or a bigger Pen Mill, and for the reasons above, I think Pen Mill is the better location, provided the shuttle bus service across Yeovil is stepped up and early and late services are met.

The solum from Pen Mill to LSWR eastbound line is still there. So is the solum from Dorchester to the Junction (Maybank). @MarkyT's design has embankment to the Town also still there. (The golfers walk through existing occupation tunnels IIRC).

I think that in the future the time penalty for Yeovil would not be so important, as I think that London bound trains will also be on a two tier service, the faster of which will, from Exeter, only stop at Yeovil and Salisbury. The lines have all got to back in, doubling, electrifying, the lot.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There is also the minor issue that Pen Mill station already exists It's a fair bet that improving an existing station, building two new chords to connect to it, and making whatever improvements to the line between the station and the chords are required to accommodate the extra services, is going to be massively cheaper than building a brand new station on a brand new bit of railway line, requiring four brand new chords to connect it to all the lines coming into the town!

Unless the benefits of the new station are overwhelming, I suspect that would be the decisive issue if anything like this were actually going to be done.

 

[MarkyT]

I don't see a great time penalty between a new Town or a bigger Pen Mill, and for the reasons above, I think Pen Mill is the better location, provided the shuttle bus service across Yeovil is stepped up and early and late services are met.

The Pen Mill area really needs to become another activity hub to underpin this, preferably with some local leisure activities to help support evening local bus services. Ideally you would want to relocate the bus station, Oxford style to Pen Mill. That then becomes the terminus for country routes currently terminating at the existing site, as well as local urban shuttles. The routes can all also still serve the town centre en route in and out-bound.

The new Town site has all these factors already in place and is fairly close to the existing bus station - the walking route could be improved further.

Pulled back a little from Ivel Court, and with the station entrance under the Newton Road bridge as you suggest, the tracks and platforms could be well hidden behind trees, with buildings and buffer stop on the car park site, and spaces from there relocated to decking over the cinema car park, expanded as necessary to provide some station parking.

Services between Yeovil and Bournmouth might be additional trains from Bristol, which together with the Weymouth trains could be planned to provide an hourly service between Dorchester, Yeovil and Bristol. A good interchange at a common Yeovil station, whether Pen Mill or Town, would give excellent single change regional connectivity further west to Exeter and perhaps direct onwards to Plymouth in the future, if the Okehampton route was reinstated. Using Diesels over Dorchester - Bournemouth would improve local link frequency whilst avoiding additional load on the weak traction power supply. Extending the diesel units further east to Southampton, Eastleigh, Romsey, Portsmouth would be possible but would probably favour operation by the SW franchise, in which case the service would more likely be split at Yeovil, the extra Bristol - Yeovils only operated by the GW franchise, and the Yeovil - Southampton - Where-evers going to SW. I like the through Bristol - Bournemouth option however, minimising the diesel over electrified mileage whilst recreating a new S&D (kind of!). Bristol/Bath - Solent is alreadiy well catered for via Salisbury, and this provides the connectivity from further west by interchange at Salisbury (or via Westbury) anyway. At first with only a two hour interval service alternating with the Weymouths, a reversing move at Dorchester would probably be sufficient. This need not require an additional siding however as the reversal might occur on one or other of the existing running lines. Some small signalling alterations would likely be required however to allow this.