Bournemouth to Reading 01.04.2021 Routing question

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Mills444

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Evening all On trainsplit I have managed to find a Totton- Reading via Woking ticket (attached below). But I am unable to find the ticket listed on any of the Tocs websites even after forcing via Woking. Would this be a valid route?

Many thanks Brandan
 

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JonathanH

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Evening all On trainsplit I have managed to find a Totton- Reading via Woking ticket (attached below). But I am unable to find the ticket listed on any of the Tocs websites even after forcing via Woking. Would this be a valid route?

Many thanks Brandan
It uses buses. That isn't a valid route for a through ticket. Clearly you can buy split tickets to go that way but i would note that Basingstoke to Reading is a shorter distance to travel than Basingstoke to Woking before buses are even considered.

Totton to Reading uses Southampton and Reading as routeing points. Southampton to Reading is only valid on Map XR, that is the direct route via Winchester, Basingstoke and Bramley.

I have included some screen shots from the routeing guide. http://data.atoc.org/rp_calc

1617213731027.png

Southampton Group Reading Group XR

1617213657337.png
 
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ivorytoast28

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Would it be valid if I followed the itinery throughout i.e using the buses?
Only if you buy a split ticket that goes via heathrow, As JonathanH showed above the Anytime Day return from Totton to Reading or Reading West is not valid via woking/heathrow. This is the ticket your screenshot shows and that ticket is only valid via Bramley. This is a very long additional route, which you'll need separate tickets to travel on. There are just as cheap split tickets via basingstoke, so I assume you are actually trying to travel via woking/heathrow for some reason.
 

JonathanH

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Even if the itinerary could be used to justify taking that route (and I leave it to someone else to say whether it constitutes a contract), from a practical perspective, you would need to convince a) the gateline staff at Woking, b) the driver of the coach at Woking and c) the driver of the coach at Heathrow that your print out is sufficient evidence of the validity of your ticket and unlike connecting between trains (where you would already be aboard the train at the point of ticket checking) they would each probably want to charge for a new ticket to actually convey you on that route.
 

Mills444

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Thanks for that so I guess the coach itinerary is a mistake in the booking system.
 

yorkie

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When rail replacement buses are involved in the start and/or end of a journey, the routeing rules are applied to the points where the rail element starts/ends.

This is not a "mistake" as such however if this produces odd results, a "negative easement" will probably implemented as soon as Rail Delivery Group and/or the relevant train company sees this thread.

If you follow an itinerary to the letter, no-one can deny you travel. They can, in theory, potentially instruct you to take a more direct route, but they cannot strand you or prevent you travelling to the destination.

A train company could take a photo of the ticket as evidence or they can withdraw the ticket entirely, but if they do so they must issue a replacement ticket that would get you to your destination.

If you would like to learn more about routeing rules or any other fares related matters you are welcome to sign up for a free fares workshop; simply 'vote' in this poll to indicate your preferred venue: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/fares-workshops.208770/
 

IrishDave

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When rail replacement buses are involved in the start and/or end of a journey, the routeing rules are applied to the points where the rail element starts/ends.
This doesn't involve rail replacement buses at all. Instead, trainsplit is routing a Totton-Reading ticket via the Woking-Heathrow RailAir coach.
 

plugwash

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When rail replacement buses are involved in the start and/or end of a journey, the routeing rules are applied to the points where the rail element starts/ends.

This is not a "mistake" as such
Would I be right in assuming that the reason this is done is so that they don't have to add a whole load of special rules to the system when RRBs are run to a route that doesn't match the route of the rail lines (for example bussing ECML passengers over to the MML rather than bussing them into London).
 

Paul Kelly

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Would I be right in assuming that the reason this is done is so that they don't have to add a whole load of special rules to the system when RRBs are run to a route that doesn't match the route of the rail lines (for example bussing ECML passengers over to the MML rather than bussing them into London).
I don't think so, since if the rail replacement bus is in the middle of the journey then it must still follow the normal routeing rules (i.e. be traceable on a map). Most locations on the ECML would also be valid into London via the MML so it might not be as big an issue as you're suggesting, although will require a map easement if the bus doesn't call at all the routeing points along the way. Often the use of a bus (for which mileage is not counted) means the replacement route ends up being shorter than the shortest route and the routeing guide doesn't need to be consulted.

In regard to the OP, I think it is permitted because the large mileage by bus (which is not counted when checking the routeing rules) means the journey is shorter than the shortest route. National Rail Enquiries also permits it; see attached screenshot.

ttn-rdg.png
 

JonathanH

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In regard to the OP, I think it is permitted because the large mileage by bus (which is not counted when checking the routeing rules) means the journey is shorter than the shortest route.
'Shortest route' seems somewhat unlikely when the distance from Basingstoke to Reading is 15 miles 31 chains and the distance from Basingstoke to Woking is 23 miles 34 chains.
 

yorkie

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'Shortest route' seems somewhat unlikely when the distance from Basingstoke to Reading is 15 miles 31 chains and the distance from Basingstoke to Woking is 23 miles 34 chains.
I am a bit confused; why are you looking at the distances from Basingstoke?
 

Paul Kelly

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'Shortest route' seems somewhat unlikely when the distance from Basingstoke to Reading is 15 miles 31 chains and the distance from Basingstoke to Woking is 23 miles 34 chains.
Good point. Poor geographical knowledge on my part. In fact yorkie has already explained the situation perfectly adequately!
 

JonathanH

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I am a bit confused; why are you looking at the distances from Basingstoke?
Because the bit from Totton to Basingstoke is common to both the shortest distance from Totton to Reading and Totton to Woking.

Is the point I have missed that the distance of the shortest route from Totton to Reading is irrelevant because if Totton to Reading via Woking and Heathrow is all by bus from Woking onwards, only the shortest distance (or routeing) from Totton to Woking is actually relevant?

Testing that theory, I can get Guildford to Reading to book via Woking and the two coaches via Heathrow even though Woking is entirely off-route.

This presumably needs an easement that connecting between the Reading and Woking Railair coaches at Heathrow is never a permitted route for a train ticket.
 
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yorkie

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Because the bit from Totton to Basingstoke is common to both the shortest distance from Totton to Reading and Totton to Woking.
That's a fair point; it just confused me as to the relevance, that was all :)

Is the point I have missed that the distance of the shortest route from Totton to Reading is irrelevant because if Totton to Reading via Woking and Heathrow is all by bus from Woking onwards, only the shortest distance (or routeing) from Totton to Woking is actually relevant?
Yes; for any journey where the rail element ends at Woking and there is no further rail element, it is the routeing rules (through trains, shortest route, mapped routes etc) to Woking which matter.

Testing that theory, I can get Guildford to Reading to book via Woking and the two coaches via Heathrow even though Woking is entirely off-route.

This presumably needs an easement that connecting between the Reading and Woking Railair coaches at Heathrow is never a permitted route for a train ticket.
It is absolutely true that highlighting something here is likely to result in a negative "easement" being introduced.

Canny people may book such journeys between seeing them advertised on here and the "easements" being implemented ( I am sure @fishquinn @A Challenge @TT-ONR-NRN and others can attest to that ;))

We've seen it many times before (often reported by @kieron in the routeing guide updates thread ;))
 

Horizon22

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That's the railair bus from Woking isn't it? Not a rail replacement.

Edit: I see it says SWR bus to Heathrow but why on earth would SWR be serving Heathrow? I'm fairly certain its the regular RailAir service.
 

plugwash

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I don't think so, since if the rail replacement bus is in the middle of the journey then it must still follow the normal routeing rules (i.e. be traceable on a map). Most locations on the ECML would also be valid into London via the MML
I was thinking further south, e.g. during one disruption I looked at there were rail replacement busses from hitchin (and I think stevenage too) to somewhere nearby on the MML.
 

221129

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That's the railair bus from Woking isn't it? Not a rail replacement.

Edit: I see it says SWR bus to Heathrow but why on earth would SWR be serving Heathrow? I'm fairly certain its the regular RailAir service.
It is the RailAir yes.
 

SickyNicky

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Canny people may book such journeys between seeing them advertised on here and the "easements" being implemented ( I am sure @fishquinn @A Challenge @TT-ONR-NRN and others can attest to that ;))

They can indeed. Although perfectly valid, the tickets won't be accepted on the buses and you'll be required to pay again if you want to use them, regardless of what the rules say. You'll then need to recover the extra cost from the TOC. When you get stranded at the buses, you *should* be allowed to complete your journey by rail on the existing tickets, but I have certainly heard of cases where customers have been refused access through the barriers where they had a valid itinerary which the gateline staff didn't like. In which case, you would be stranded, so take the funds to pay for a new ticket.

If you don't mind all this potential hassle, go for it! And write up a trip report :). I'd love to be proved wrong in my pessimism.
 

SargeNpton

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That's the railair bus from Woking isn't it? Not a rail replacement.

Edit: I see it says SWR bus to Heathrow but why on earth would SWR be serving Heathrow? I'm fairly certain its the regular RailAir service.
The Woking RailAir buses are input to the timetable database by the TOC that sponsors the through fares, and so when the bus schedules are exported to the journey planners they retain that TOC's code.

So, Woking-Heathrow will show up as being run by SWR. This is repeated elsewhere around the country, such as: Darlington-Richmond buses will show as being LNER and Berwick on Tweed-Galashiels will show as CrossCountry.

The Reading-Heathrow buses are an exception as they are edited into the journey planners via a different means and show as being First Group Bus.
 
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