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Bradford Crossrail: But Why?

Bertie the bus

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Many reasons, but a couple being Bradford already has 7 tph to Leeds and therefore reducing that to 4 would hardly have a positive effect and secondly having a railway running through it would add absolutely nothing. At least at the moment if you do wish to pass through Bradford you have to walk through the city centre and therefore might contribute to its economy by buying a Greggs' sausage roll but if you just travelled through it on a train how is that going to benefit Bradford?
 
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Allwinter_Kit

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Since this thread has been reopened, I think it's worth restating its purpose.

Whilst I'm not down on Bradford, I do think it's future is as a beautiful (the city centre has amazing architecture and since it's pedestrianisation last year incredible public realm) sub-part of wider WYorks. It won't be its leading city, of course not, but it could work very well alongside Leeds if they worked together.

But that's all by the by. What we sought to explore here was.... what the benefits of somehow combining Forster Square with Interchange would be, in terms of tangible changes on the railway.

What new routes would the advocates of Bradford Crossrail like to see, and why? What do we unlock by combining the stations? Let's not end up in a thread of Leeds vs Bradford bashing, or condemning Bradford for its past. What would this (hypothetical although apparently funded - hence the thread reopening) station and trackwork actually do that would change how trains rattle about in WYorks?
 

Zomboid

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The obvious thing would be direct trains between Huddersfield/ Halifax etc and the likes of Skipton and Ilkley.
 

Palmerston

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I thought the suggested funding might refer to NPR via Bradford, but maybe that's a whole different kettle of fish.
 

Falcon1200

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Bradford Crossrail is never going to happen. It is a ludicrous idea even by the usual standards of fantasy rail schemes.

I have to agree. If there really was sufficient demand and therefore justification for a cross-Bradford line it would surely already have happened, in the heyday of the railways; It was not achieved then so certainly will not be now. The cost simply outweighs the benefits, to a huge extent.
 

xotGD

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While I can't see through trains from Skipton or Ilkley to Manchester, a same-station interchange would make via Bradford more attractive than via Leeds, and also reduce congestion at Leeds and on TPE services.

And save me from the occasional mad dash between the two stations when I have a tight connection!

I assume that any new station would also be served by the tram and be integrated with the proposed replacement bus station. Or is that too sensible?
 

stuu

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I have to agree. If there really was sufficient demand and therefore justification for a cross-Bradford line it would surely already have happened, in the heyday of the railways; It was not achieved then so certainly will not be now. The cost simply outweighs the benefits, to a huge extent.
It's a victim of how the railways were developed in this country - the stations were owned by different railway companies which has had very long term consequences across the country, and in many other places never resolved either. No one would build it like this now, but it is likely far too expensive for the benefits
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Since nobody else has made the point, the one genuine plus would be avoiding the need for trains to/from Leeds having to reverse en-route to/from anywhere else. This is doubtless perceived as a drag on journey times by some passengers. However the actual size of this benefit really doesn't add up to much at all and in itself absolutely does not justify such a scheme.
 

A S Leib

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Another point against a scheme in the short term would be that the Airedale line's electrified and the Calder Valley isn't. Ideally the latter would be as well or at the very least Northern could get bimodes, but it isn't an ideal situation for running through services (even though of course there's already diesel services under wires towards Hellifield).
 

Sir Felix Pole

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It's a victim of how the railways were developed in this country - the stations were owned by different railway companies which has had very long term consequences across the country, and in many other places never resolved either. No one would build it like this now, but it is likely far too expensive for the benefits
The Midland obtained powers for a cross Bradford line in the Edwardian period, including a new line up the Spen Valley but WW1 intervened. Bradford would have been on the main-line to Scotland. After WW1 the grouping and economic situation killed it.
 

WAO

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The Bradford Cross-rail idea has two strands; one railway operational and commercial and the second the present planning and economic practicality.

The first is unanswerably favourable. No one would suggest that Thameslink or Crossrail (or Merseyrail or CrossCity, etc etc) would be better split with opposing terminals within walking distance and that terminal layovers promote effective stock use and rostering. More journey opportunities within the dense valley populations of the West Riding would undoubtably increase rail use and grow the economy, as is the case in the South East.

The second is almost certainly unfavourable as road-friendly Bradford Council has not protected a route in any sense and an important shopping centre now sits astride it. Other (cheaper) warehousing might marginally obstruct a direct route which would likely need elevating from as far back as Queen's Road and routeing to the East over the car park to get over Hamm Strasse. The fashion in the inward looking Northern cities is for local trams not heavy rail, as the Chancellor's statement shows.

WAO
 
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To me the most likely plan is the St James scheme replacing Interchange, with a tram connection to Foster Square (and future tram-train up to Ilkley etc.) with a new route roughly following the Pickle Bridge Line to Huddersfield, to connect to the TPU which may go underground in Manchester at some point.
 

DynamicSpirit

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But that's all by the by. What we sought to explore here was.... what the benefits of somehow combining Forster Square with Interchange would be, in terms of tangible changes on the railway.

To try and answer that, here's a map I made of the kind of rail service I could imagine providing. It's not quite the same as the suggestion I made earlier because I wanted to show what improvements in connectivity you could achieve even without adding substantial new services.


Bradford-Xrail min-new-services.png

Map shows a suggested service provision if you built Bradford Crossrail linking Interchange and Forster Square. It also requires a South-East chord to by-pass Interchange and suggests several new stations. But in terms of services, note that there are NO significant new services other than 4tph of Forster Square terminators extended to Leeds.

Benefits you'd gain even without other new services are:
  • Existing Calder Valley services from Manchester/Blackpool significantly speeded up by changing their calling pattern plus no need to reverse at Interchange.
  • At least 6tph to Leeds from both the two main Bradford central stations - so much easier for people travelling Bradford to Leeds (Plus 5tph from South Parkway although in practice only 3tph with good journey times)
  • Through journeys possible from North to South
  • Connections from North of Bradford to get to Manchester/Blackburn possible without travelling into Leeds
  • Many of the housing areas in Bradford get frequent services to Leeds, as well as to Bradford City Centre
 
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The Ham

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To me the most likely plan is the St James scheme replacing Interchange, with a tram connection to Foster Square (and future tram-train up to Ilkley etc.) with a new route roughly following the Pickle Bridge Line to Huddersfield, to connect to the TPU which may go underground in Manchester at some point.

Whilst trams are often cheaper to build and run than trains, that's not always the case.

When Borden in Hampshire was assessed to see if it was better to build light rail or heavy rail to provide connections to the rail network, due to the costs of having to have a separate maintance depot meant that light rail was actually more expensive.

As such, unless that tram is part of a wider tram network then it may be cheaper to use heavy rail.

Likewise, whilst tram-trains do fix attain issues, you are introducing a micro fleet, which means that not only is it more expensive to provide the trams but you add to the cost of the railways.

As an example, people often say that to reopen the line through Tavistock (Devon) would increase the costs of the railways, to a point that true, as there's extra track to maintain, however the rolling stock (and associated staff costs) hardly change (there's more km's travelled so a bit more maintenance) however you don't need to lease any more rolling stock or employ extra staff as the time spent turning the services around is the time needed (plus a bit spare) to run a through service.

With such a short distance (between the two Bradford staitions) you could (as indicated by @DynamicSpirit) actually add in stations as the extra time required for those calls (in terms of rolling stock and staff time) are already covered by the time needed to turn the trains around.

Whilst people look at that journeys which currently are possible and say that a through route won't help (which is true) you'd create so many new station pairings that even though the flows between each pair are likely to be small, the overall increase in passengers numbers could be quite significant.
 

Falcon1200

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It's a victim of how the railways were developed in this country

Indeed, and IMHO it is a great pity that Governments at the time, while still allowing competing private companies, did not insist on 'Union' stations in big cities, with co-location if not co-operation. How much better things would be now, in Bradford and elsewhere!

the overall increase in passengers numbers could be quite significant.

But enough to justify the cost, which I note has not been mentioned.....
 

tbtc

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A few thoughts/comments (in no particular order):

In the real world, we are spending big money on additional platform capacity at Forster Square for London trains to have a platform to recover at/ wait until it's time to head back to Leeds, currently they can sit for over an hour in Bradford. Similarly the existing GC service can sit at t'Interchange for most of an hour. For example, at the moment there's an LNER service sat in Bradford from 13:55-15:16 midweek with a GC service occupying a platform across town between 14:02-14:49. So two city centre platforms tied up for quite a while at the same time and probably no scope to realistically cut either of those (given recovery/ cleaning/ staff layovers/ finding suitable paths for long distance trains)

(There's currently similar need to give Shipley EMUs somewhere to sit off-peak - rather than occupy scarce platform capacity in Leeds or take up Neville Hill paths - a future Shipley depot will hopefully give the EMUs somewhere else to lay over, in theory, but...)

Any "central" station in Bradford would presumably need to be built with plenty of "spare" platforms for such eventualities, especially since you'd probably not be able to extend your site once built, especially if it's underground/viaduct. Which makes it at least three platforms just for trains to lay over for long periods... Plus at least two, maybe four through platforms to accommodate the current Northern services (given contingency for disruption/ freight/ breakdowns/ crew changes etc on "local" services)?

Do you need to throw in any more capacity to allow diverted TPE services? Maybe even some Carlisle/ Morecambe trains? Don't forget the all-important services to East Lancashire via Skipton and Colne, that some seem convinced will happen... Okay, not everything will happen, but it would be very "brave" to design this scheme to accommodate just six trains an hour in each direction when touting all these other supposed benefits, given the Bradford ambitions (remember the desire for through Nottingham/ Manchester Airport trains?).

And that's in a railway industry that already seems to pay through the nose for any infrastructure even for the most basic new station (or accessible toilet!). As well as space for trams? And a decent sized station with long platforms if Bradford gets a station on a 'fast' Leeds-Manchester line?

Plus presumably at least one more brand new through station in the city centre, to avoid disadvantaging existing passengers (that will similarly need more than two platforms, to allow overtaking etc)? If you want to future-proof it then you don't want to make the mistakes that British Rail did in the 1980s when designing stations like Meadowhall (just a two shortish platforms on each line , meaning no scope for XC/ London trains to either stop or overtake there, can't even fit much more than a four car Sprinter, even TPE have to use SDO there, can't use it for daytime services to terminate).

Don't want to create another Castlefield, where various long distance trains are significantly delayed because trying to squeeze a mish-mash of through routes coming from different directions with no scope for the slightest disruption... The Elizabeth Line can cope with high frequencies on a two track line because it's a simple service pattern/ map. Try doing the same on a two track line with York/ Hull/ London/ Blackpool/ Wigan/ Chester etc trains ( plus freight?)... A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon, you're talking real money, as the saying goes...

There's a finite number of paths into/ platforms at Leeds. Look at how expensive the costs are for a short extension to the single platform (17) that has to cope with four terminating trains each hour that means the Nottingham service is stuck at just two coaches)? Leeds isn't going to get those HS2 platforms to free up existing platform space, in fact Leeds capacity would probably benefit from dumping trains at Bradford to get them out of the way.

At the moment, Bradford had two and a half services an hour via Shipley, and four via Pudsey. Since the LNER trains aren't realistically going to be extended along the Calder Valley onto Manchester in place of existing Northern DMUs (or run straight back out to London via Leeds with no more than a two minute dwell in Bradford!), you realistically have to plan Northern services around six Leeds paths an hour

Halifax currently has four direct Leeds trains each hour, two of which are from Manchester, one from Blackpool (so three from Hebden Bridge that route, not counting the Calder Valley service via Brighouse). Fun though Leeds-Bradford-Leeds shuttles may sound, or extending the Skipton/Ilkley services through Pudsey to Leeds looks good to members of the Bufferphobic community (not sure anyone is going to sit on a train from Ilkley to Leeds that goes via Bradford, so not sure what benefit there'd be from that, you don't want reliability at Leeds to be at the mercy of half hourly trains along the single track section between Guisley and Shipley)

So does that mean halving the Halifax frequency to Leeds? Can't see that going down well.

Or would your plan be for two of the Halifax services to run via Shipley into Leeds whilst the four Pudsey paths are taken by an extension of Skipton services beyond Bradford and the other two Halifax services continuing to reverse in Bradford to follow their existing route into Leeds ( and the Ilkley trains terminate in central Bradford)? Bang goes any claim that reversal takes too long as justification for why we need to spend huge sums on a through station then.

In terms of speeding up longer distance trains, there's the problem that paths might not tie up particularly well between the fixed slots at busy junctions, so dwell times might have to be extended rather than cut (e.g. if you want a Blackpool - York train to run via Shipley to avoid reversal then will it slot neatly through the fixed path at Armley? Any slight delay may mean it loses it's slots further afield (e.g. if it needs to stop at multiple Bradford stations plus get a path between Harrogate services could lose it a slot though Neville Hill or at Preston), meaning journey times extended further

Or we hope paths on the Transpennine line allow us to double the Huddersfield frequency to create a half hourly Ilkley-Huddersfield train that somehow fits with platform capacity at Huddersfield / TPE paths through Deighton/ the single track section through Baildon? If not then that's even more platforms needed in central Bradford to accommodate terminating services.

But then the idea of Manchester/Blackpool services avoiding central Bradford (serving a station on the edge of East Bowling instead, maybe with a tram connection?) seems incredibly unpopular in the city. Diverting via an East Bowling station (and avoiding the city centre) would certainly save time on journeys like Blackpool-Leeds, but I thought it was unacceptable to central Bradford to lose their Manchester trains?

Then there's electrification to consider. Does the plan include wiring the Calder Valley too? All the way to Manchester/ Preston? And the line through Pudsey? Obviously bi-modes mean that's not as necessary as it once would have been, that'll mean a few quid on new trains too, given how many units are going to pass through Bradford each hour in this scenario (running from Halifax/York to Blackpool/Wigan/ Chester plus potentially Skipton etc too?)!

It does sound fun to model in OO gauge though, a fictional world where a busy city station sees a variety of local/ long distance services. A chance to mix trains from different lines into one station, maybe with the excuse of 'diverted services from the S&C/ Transpennine' too, to throw in for fun. Just a waste of resources (and crayons) in real life.
 

DynamicSpirit

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A few thoughts/comments (in no particular order):

In the real world, we are spending big money on additional platform capacity at Forster Square for London trains to have a platform to recover at/ wait until it's time to head back to Leeds, currently they can sit for over an hour in Bradford. Similarly the existing GC service can sit at t'Interchange for most of an hour. For example, at the moment there's an LNER service sat in Bradford from 13:55-15:16 midweek with a GC service occupying a platform across town between 14:02-14:49. So two city centre platforms tied up for quite a while at the same time and probably no scope to realistically cut either of those (given recovery/ cleaning/ staff layovers/ finding suitable paths for long distance trains)

(There's currently similar need to give Shipley EMUs somewhere to sit off-peak - rather than occupy scarce platform capacity in Leeds or take up Neville Hill paths - a future Shipley depot will hopefully give the EMUs somewhere else to lay over, in theory, but...)

Any "central" station in Bradford would presumably need to be built with plenty of "spare" platforms for such eventualities, especially since you'd probably not be able to extend your site once built, especially if it's underground/viaduct. Which makes it at least three platforms just for trains to lay over for long periods... Plus at least two, maybe four through platforms to accommodate the current Northern services (given contingency for disruption/ freight/ breakdowns/ crew changes etc on "local" services)?

You make lots of sensible points about the issues to consider. The issue of spare platforms at a future underground Bradford Central is fairly easy to work around though: You just route all the Trans-pennine/long distance services through St James - where it seems possible that a new station will be built anyway. This would also be the most sensible route for Trans-pennine trains in terms of minimising through journey times, and is roughly what I proposed in post #74 above. If any London terminators also used St James (which in any case is probably more sensible than running them round Shipley - with or without Bradford Crossrail), then Bradford Central would become a strictly metro-only station. It should therefore be fine to build it as two platforms.

Alternatively you could put an underground station at Forster Square for through metro trains, leaving the existing platforms for any terminators from the North - although I don't think that would be as good for passengers in the long term.

If - in 30 or so years' time, there's a desire for Bradford to be connected to the Lancaster or Carlisle lines, I'd argue that could more effectively be done by having those trains stop at Shipley and provide frequent connections to Bradford Central - rather than routing them through Bradford and thereby slowing down journey times to Leeds - which is still likely to be the biggest destination. (It would be nice to see some 4-tracking somewhere between Keighley and Leeds so those trains can overtake the metro trains, but that's a separate issue).
 
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Senex

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The Midland obtained powers for a cross Bradford line in the Edwardian period, including a new line up the Spen Valley but WW1 intervened. Bradford would have been on the main-line to Scotland. After WW1 the grouping and economic situation killed it.
The Leeds & Bradford got an Act in 1846 (9&10 Victoria cap. ccci) to build a junction-line. That didn't get done either.
 

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