Break journey, Anytime return ticket

[coffeeandthyme]

I had an Anytime Short distance ticket to Liverpool. The start station near my friends house is a tiny category f2 (1 Direct slow train to Liverpool every two hours) . When I bought the ticket The specified journey for seat reservation to Liverpool was via Manchester City centre. I tried to break the journey in Manchester before heading to Liverpool. The person at the barrier in Manchester told me because my start station is west of Manchester so I shouldn’t be in the city centre at all and can’t break my journey there. We argued a bit and then he sent me to the ticket booth to buy a ticket. the person at the booth told me if i felt unwell (hint hint) I could break my journey in the city centre.

Who was right?

 

[yorkie]

Without knowing the exact origin and destination, we can't answer that.

 

[gray1404]

I had an Anytime Short distance ticket to Liverpool. The start station near my friends house is a tiny category f2 (1 Direct slow train to Liverpool every two hours) . When I bought the ticket The specified journey for seat reservation to Liverpool was via Manchester City centre. I tried to break the journey in Manchester before heading to Liverpool. The person at the barrier in Manchester told me because my start station is west of Manchester so I shouldn’t be in the city centre at all and can’t break my journey there. We argued a bit and then he sent me to the ticket booth to buy a ticket. the person at the booth told me if i felt unwell (hint hint) I could break my journey in the city centre.

Who was right?

It's really important we know the exact ticket held and journey being made.

Given you started your journey west of Manchester it could be that travel via Manchester is not permitted as it involves a double back. However it sounds like the journey planner offered you an itinerary travelling via Manchester. However without knowing what ticket you held and journey being made it is impossible to comment.

A break of journey is always permitted on an anytime ticket but must be travelling via a permitted route. Also on anytime short returns the outward portion is only valid for one day.

If you post back with your full journey and ticket details we will be able to advise accordingly.

 

[yorkie]

It's really important we know the exact ticket held and journey being made.

Given you started your journey west of Manchester it could be that travel via Manchester is not permitted as it involves a double back.

It won't be invalidated due to a double back per se; there is no rule against a journey doubling back. That's a myth. The doubling back rule relates to tracing mapped routes.

I think what you mean is that travel via Manchester may not be permitted as Manchester may not be an appropriate Routeing Point.

But without knowing the detail of the journey, there is nothing to debate.

 

[gray1404]

It won't be invalidated due to a double back per se; there is no rule against a journey doubling back. That's a myth. The doubling back rule relates to tracing mapped routes.

I think what you mean is that travel via Manchester may not be permitted as Manchester may not be an appropriate Routeing Point.

But without knowing the detail of the journey, there is nothing to debate.

My apologies yes, for the avoidance of doubt, I am not saying that a double back is not permitted. I simply mean to say that they must be travelling via a permitted route according to the routing guide.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The description of a slow direct service to Liverpool at 0.5tph sounds like one of the local stations east of Warrington on the CLC to me.

 

[yorkie]

It the ticket is issued from/to any of the origins/destinations below, these are all the same price as Manchester to Liverpool, so would be valid:

Flow Origin​	Q235​
Cluster​	0438 MANCHESTER STNS​	2799 MOORSIDE​	2937 HUMPHREY PARK​	2953 GATLEY​
	2612 WALKDEN​	2800 SWINTON MANCHR​	2938 URMSTON​	2955 GUIDE BRIDGE​
	2780 FAIRFIELD​	2860 HEALD GREEN​	2941 ASHBURYS​	2960 ARDWICK​
	2785 BELLE VUE​	2862 LEVENSHULME​	2945 BURNAGE​	2962 GORTON​
	2794 SALFORD CRESCENT​	2867 MAULDETH ROAD​	2947 CHASSEN ROAD​	2969 TRAFFORD PARK​
	2795 CLIFTON MANCHR​	2916 PATRICROFT​	2949 EAST DIDSBURY​	2977 RYDER BROW​
	2798 SALFORD CENTRAL​	2935 FLIXTON​	2950 ECCLES (MANCHR)​	2979 REDDISH NORTH​
Flow Destination​	Q233​
Cluster​	0435 LIVERPOOL STNS​	2160 HUYTON​	2247 ORRELL PARK​	2295 HALEWOOD​
	1780 BOOTLE NEW/ORIEL​	2169 EDGE HILL​	2248 ST MICHAELS​	2303 HOUGH GREEN​
	2123 BLUNDELLSANDS​	2171 MOSSLEY HILL​	2249 SANDHILLS​	2356 HIGHTOWN​
	2124 KIRKBY MERSEYSDE​	2225 CRESSINGTON​	2250 SEAFORTH & LITHD​	3623 BRUNSWICK​
	2125 AINTREE​	2229 HALL ROAD​	2251 WALTON MERSEYSDE​	6576 MAGHULL NORTH​
	2126 FAZAKERLEY​	2235 HUNTS CROSS​	2255 AIGBURTH​	8589 WAVERTREE TECHPK​
	2131 RICE LANE​	2238 BANK HALL​	2258 OLD ROAN​	9709 LIVERPOOL S PWAY​
	2133 WATERLOO MERSEY​	2240 BROAD GREEN​	2261 ROBY​	​
	2155 MAGHULL​	2245 KIRKDALE​	2266 WEST ALLERTON​	​

 

[coffeeandthyme]

Apologies, I’d actually forgotten the name of the station. It was Humphrey park to Liverpool lime Street

 

[yorkie]

Apologies, I’d actually forgotten the name of the station. It was Humphrey park to Liverpool lime Street

That's valid via Manchester.

That said if you tried to break your journey at Piccadilly, there is an argument to say the extended validity between Oxford Road and Piccadilly is only for interchange purposes and this may be deemed to rule out a break of journey there.

If you broke your journey at Oxford Road, that should be absolutely fine.

It's disappointing but not surprising that gateline staff at Northern are acting in such a poor manner; there are insufficient safeguards in place to ensure staff behaviour and actions are appropriate at TOCs such as Northern

Good to hear the ticket office staff were pragmatic and sensible though.

Staffing on the railway is an absolute lottery; some staff are amazing, some are appalling. Most are good but there are plenty of bad apples around, sadly.

I can't see this ever changing.

 

[coffeeandthyme]

Thanks. That’s what I thought but guy at barrier disagreed. How do I ‘prove’ it if it happens again?

It happened at Oxford road.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks. That’s what I thought but guy at barrier disagreed. How do I ‘prove’ it if it happens again?

You can prove validity by showing the itinerary. Some websites allow you to include additional interchange time; I think Trainsplit allows an extra 99 minutes (advanced options)

Proving you are allowed to break your journey is more tricky but if you have a lengthy time between trains in your itinerary, they can't really deny your right to pass through the barriers.

If staff act inappropriately you could report them to the company. Not that I expect the company to do anything about it, but you never know...

 

[gray1404]

That's valid via Manchester.

That said if you tried to break your journey at Piccadilly, there is an argument to say the extended validity between Oxford Road and Piccadilly is only for interchange purposes and this may be deemed to rule out a break of journey there.

If you broke your journey at Oxford Road, that should be absolutely fine.

It's disappointing but not surprising that gateline staff at Northern are acting in such a poor manner; there are insufficient safeguards in place to ensure staff behaviour and actions are appropriate at TOCs such as Northern

Good to hear the ticket office staff were pragmatic and sensible though.

Staffing on the railway is an absolute lottery; some staff are amazing, some are appalling. Most are good but there are plenty of bad apples around, sadly.

I can't see this ever changing.

That is interesting Yorkie I would have thought that travel and break a journey via Piccadilly would be permitted given it is in the same station group as Oxford Road. Have I missed something here in my understanding though do feel free to correct me. @yorkie

 

[yorkie]

That is interesting Yorkie I would have thought that travel and break a journey via Piccadilly would be permitted given it is in the same station group as Oxford Road. Have I missed something here in my understanding though do feel free to correct me. @yorkie

It's been debated before on this forum; I will do a search tomorrow and dig out some threads.

The rule regarding doubling back within a group is documented in the Routeing guide.

 

[coffeeandthyme]

Are you only allowed to break the journey if there’s a long wait time between trains?

 

[yorkie]

Are you only allowed to break the journey if there’s a long wait time between trains?

Not at all

But if you are doubling back between Oxford Road and Piccadilly, there is an argument to say you should only be doing so for 'interchange purposes'.

 

[coffeeandthyme]

So if it’s happens again do what I did and refuse to buy a new ticket and hope for the best?

It’s really rubbish

 

[gray1404]

It's been debated before on this forum; I will do a search tomorrow and dig out some threads.

The rule regarding doubling back within a group is documented in the Routeing guide.

Many thanks that's really helpful. I was honestly under the impression it was fine to break your journey at any station within the same station group not the first one you entered into.

So if it’s happens again do what I did and refuse to buy a new ticket and hope for the best?

It’s really rubbish

My advice would be if you really want to break your journey then do so at Oxford Road. If you encounter any problems you should pay whatever they are asking and make a note of the name on the name badge of any member of staff you encounter. Make a complaints and recover the money through the complaints process.

You could try to break your journey at Piccadilly by asking if you can and if this is refused then state that you will simply continue your journey and do so. Again if they require you to pay anything more perhaps you could pay it and then make a complaint.

 

[plugwash]

Would it be inadvisable to break ones journey at Picadilly by using the exit that rarely has ticket checks.................?

 

[coffeeandthyme]

Thanks all for all the advice

How long does it normally take to recover the cost via the complaints? I’d also worry that my complaint would be rejected and I’d lose the money completely

 

[gray1404]

There is that possibility that they may reject your complaint and you lose the money. However if your complaint is initially rejected you can ask for it to be reviewed by Manager and if they still do not play ball then you can take your complaint to the Rail Ombudsman. If I was in your situation that I was forced to purchase a new ticket they are in essence not honouring the correct validity of the original ticket so I would be doing a charge back of the original via my credit card company or bank.

There is such a variation on how long it takes to deal with a complaint from a few days to several weeks or months.

I would also only be breaking my journey at Oxford Road because I know I would be a 100% in the right to do that and I would simply avoid Piccadilly under these specific circumstances.

How long do you need to break your journey for? It is possible to in some journey planners to specify an extended interchange time and it may be useful that you travel with an itinerary showing exactly the trains you intend to travel on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In practice a break of journey at Piccadilly is perhaps less likely to be an issue, because there are lots of station services outside the gateline, so you pop out to use those (which, while it's not now written, classically doesn't count as BoJ) and conveniently go somewhere else instead.

 

[Watershed]

Oxford Road isn't actually the first station you reach from Humphrey Park; Deansgate is.

Deansgate doesn't have a brilliant service (not all CLC trains stop there, and nothing at all after 18:00 on Fridays and Saturdays during the Christmas markets) but anything beyond there - even going a few hundred yards to Oxford Road - is actually doubling back. However, as explained above, doubling back isn't inherently barred; there are some cases where it's allowed and others where it's not.

I would concur that breaking your journey at Piccadilly is less likely to cause hassle. There are two permanently unbarried exits (Fairfield Street lift and the London end of platform 1) and it's frequently the case that at least one of the three barrier lines is unmanned (you can access any of them via the footbridge).

Whilst having an itinerary which goes via Oxford Road/Piccadilly and allows a huge interchange there doesn't technically entitle you to break your journey, at Piccadilly there are plenty of station facilities on the unpaid side of the barriers, and it is well known that using station facilities does not count as a break of journey. Even Oxford Road has a little pizza shop on the unpaid side of the barriers.

 

[coffeeandthyme]

Update: from Northern

‘if you are booked on a journey you can change at Oxford Road to catch your connecting service. However you can only break your journey between Humphrey Park and Liverpool as they are the stations you are booked between. I'm sorry for the confusion.’

And a break in the journey at Oxford road requires two tickets- one Humphrey park to Oxford road and a second one for Oxford road to Liverpool.

 

[Watershed]

Update: from Northern

‘if you are booked on a journey you can change at Oxford Road to catch your connecting service. However you can only break your journey between Humphrey Park and Liverpool as they are the stations you are booked between. I'm sorry for the confusion.’

And a break in the journey at Oxford road requires two tickets- one Humphrey park to Oxford road and a second one for Oxford road to Liverpool.

Oxford Road is "between" Humphrey Park and Liverpool on one of the permitted routes. Clearly, the person who has written that hasn't got a clue about how permitted routes work - but I wouldn't expect much else. There are very few people at the TOCs that have the requisite level of knowledge to give a sensible answer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Update: from Northern

‘if you are booked on a journey you can change at Oxford Road to catch your connecting service. However you can only break your journey between Humphrey Park and Liverpool as they are the stations you are booked between. I'm sorry for the confusion.’

And a break in the journey at Oxford road requires two tickets- one Humphrey park to Oxford road and a second one for Oxford road to Liverpool.

Unsurprisingly this is totally incorrect.

 

[coffeeandthyme]

This is what I said but they’re telling me it’s not. I’m likely to have to make the same journey in a couple of weeks and more regularly after that. This is so frustrating

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is what I said but they’re telling me it’s not. I’m likely to have to make the same journey in a couple of weeks and more regularly after that. This is so frustrating

It doesn't help that it is in my mind (and thus theirs too) a bit surprising that the ticket is valid via Manchester, but it absolutely is. Break of journey is only explicitly excluded when using a route valid only because it is a direct train - I do wonder if Northern staff are getting confused about that. There's also nothing being lost as the (NFM64) fare is the same as Manchester.

I do wonder if going to Piccadilly (which is on-route - doubling back is permitted within a station group for interchange purposes, and it says nothing about whether you *have* to do that or not - I certainly would for more chance of a seat!) would cause you fewer issues, possibly particularly if you went over the bridge and through the Avanti gateline as they're less likely to know where Humphrey Park actually is and less likely to be looking to issue penalty fares as Avanti isn't a Penalty Fare TOC.

I similarly wonder if, if you are actually needing to go through the city centre itself, it makes sense to go to Piccadilly, then into town, then across to Liverpool from Victoria rather than down the CLC where there is a double-back, albeit one in a part of the journey where doing so is not prohibited. In that case there is no double back involved at all, though goodness knows what Victoria gateline would think.

 

[sheff1]

My advice would be if you really want to break your journey then do so at Oxford Road. If you encounter any problems you should pay whatever they are asking and make a note of the name on the name badge of any member of staff you encounter. Make a complaints and recover the money through the complaints process.

My approach is that if someone requests/demands that I pay more when I already have a valid ticket then I decline to do so. Nothing further has ever come from this. I appreciate that some people might not be confident in taking this approach and obviously you need to be 100% sure that the ticket is valid. Unfortunately, people who are not sure cannot rely on the information provided by a TOC in response to specific question being correct.

 

[coffeeandthyme]

That’s what I did with the guy at the barrier. Arguing back only got me sent to the ticket booth. Luckily to someone who didn’t want to get involved.

I checked a routing guide online and routeing guide calculator and directed the Twitter person to it, who is standing firm that breaking the journey is only for stations physically between Humphrey park and Liverpool, not by chosen route. I’ve been directed to complaints for an explanation if I ‘still don’t understand’

 

[Bletchleyite]

My approach is that if someone requests/demands that I pay more when I already have a valid ticket then I decline to do so. Nothing further has ever come from this. I appreciate that some people might not be confident in taking this approach and obviously you need to be 100% sure that the ticket is valid. Unfortunately, people who are not sure cannot rely on the information provided by a TOC in response to specific question being correct.

I think that depends on what they do. If a Penalty Fare is offered it is usually sensible to take that (but not pay on the spot*), because there's an official appeals process and once the appeal has been made and decided either way they can't prosecute, so if you know you're in the right you can just ignore it and if they do sue you (very rare if ever) you'd have a decent defence.

* Is it still the case you must as a minimum pay the allegedly evaded fare on the spot, or has that gone?