Break of journey at Stockport: Do I have to use Northern when I resume my journey?

[Factotum]

I plan to travel from Buxton to Manchester Piccadilly taking a two hour break in Stockport
Obviously the first part of the journey will ,be on a Northern train but does the resumption also have to be on a Northern train.
I ask because the fares from Stockport to Manchester are substantially more expensive on other company's trains

 

[Class800]

What is the ticket the OP intends to use?

 

[ainsworth74]

Depends on exactly what ticket you hold. As long as it is routed something like "Any Permitted", "." or "Via X" and doesn't say anything like "Northern Only" or similar then you can resume your journey using any operator you like.

 

[skyhigh]

Depends on exactly what ticket you hold. As long as it is routed something like "Any Permitted", "." or "Via X" and doesn't say anything like "Northern Only" or similar then you can resume your journey using any operator you like.

There aren't any Northern only tickets from Buxton to Manchester Piccadilly (and are all route via Stockport) so should be fine, as long as it's not an advance.

 

[jfollows]

Here are the non-advance fares from Buxton to Manchester (https://www.brfares.com/!expert?orig=BUX&dest=MAN), as others have already said they're valid for break of journey at Stockport and they are valid on any train (not just Northern's trains) to continue, as long as the B3 (not valid before 9am) or NO (only applicable to the Duo fare) restrictions are observed.

My other half worked (pre-Covid) in Stockport and sometimes bought a Wilmslow-Manchester return, got off at Stockport and then continued to Manchester after work, he never had a problem with breaking his journey at Stockport.

 

[Bensonby]

Aren’t some Avanti West Coast services “set down only” at Stockport? The OP would have to be careful not to board one of those.

 

[miklcct]

Aren’t some Avanti West Coast services “set down only” at Stockport? The OP would have to be careful not to board one of those.

The ticket is "via Stockport". Why can't the OP board a service at Stockport using a "via Stockport" ticket?

 

[skyhigh]

Aren’t some Avanti West Coast services “set down only” at Stockport?

I think that restriction was binned off during the pandemic? Just had a quick look on RTT and can't see any, but a good point to raise if it is still used.

 

[ainsworth74]

The ticket is "via Stockport". Why can't the OP board a service at Stockport using a "via Stockport" ticket?

A train which is "set down only" is not available for passengers to board. It is as if it didn't call at the station from the point of view of any passengers at that station.

 

[skyhigh]

The ticket is "via Stockport". Why can't the OP board a service at Stockport using a "via Stockport" ticket?

Some trains are set-down only (where passengers are only permitted to alight, not board), and some are pick-up only (where passengers may only board, not alight) at certain stations. This is normally for crowding reasons to get local passengers to use other services with more capacity - see GWR West Country services out of Paddington that are pick-up only at Reading, for an example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that restriction was binned off during the pandemic? Just had a quick look on RTT and can't see any, but a good point to raise if it is still used.

I'm pretty sure it was binned off far longer ago than that, because Avanti/Virgin wanted to sell dedicated tickets and keep all the lucre (and those tickets still exist). I don't recall it being set down only except in the 1990s, when unlike Watford it wasn't enforced and was purely to allow early departure.

But either way, the rule is that you may not board a set down only train with ANY ticket, not even an All Lines Rover. The train in effect doesn't stop at all, as far as someone boarding is concerned. There may be no written way to enforce this other than shouting at the offending passenger, but that doesn't make it allowed.

 

[jfollows]

Aren’t some Avanti West Coast services “set down only” at Stockport? The OP would have to be careful not to board one of those.

No, the restriction was changed years ago, it's probably down to ORCATS, but Virgin Trains used to pick up passengers at Stockport, Avanti West Coast continues to do so, and the services are advertised on the departure boards at Stockport also. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...9/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=VT for example for today:

(And it was never enforced anyway, I used to hop on Manchester-bound express trains at Stockport in the 1970s and it was never a problem)

The attachment shows today's VT (Avanti) trains which pick up at Stockport with destination of Manchester, basically all of them ......

 

[30907]

Before we get too distracted, the answer to the OP is: with a through ticket from Buxton to Manchester (other than a Northern Duo) they can use any operator's train.

The reason that there are multiple fares from Stockport to Manchester is because five different train companies have services over that section, and three of them want to grab a fractionally bigger slice of the income than they would get from the normal income-sharing system. Northern retaliate with their "Northern Advance" ticket.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Before we get too distracted, the answer to the OP is: with a through ticket from Buxton to Manchester (other than a Northern Duo) they can use any operator's train.

Is use of the "Duo" ticket restricted to Northern services only on the section of the Buxton -> Manchester journey which is also operated by other TOCs?

 

[30907]

Is use of the "Duo" ticket restricted to Northern services only on the section of the Buxton -> Manchester journey which is also operated by other TOCs?

An interesting question. There is nothing in the BRFares data to say so...

 

[jfollows]

Is use of the "Duo" ticket restricted to Northern services only on the section of the Buxton -> Manchester journey which is also operated by other TOCs?

No

What more should I say?
I use DUO Wilmslow-Manchester and it’s not restricted to Northern; they set the fare but that’s not the same thing.

(I wouldn’t use the ticket if it were restricted to Northern services only)

 

[Watershed]

No

What more should I say?
I use DUO Wilmslow-Manchester and it’s not restricted to Northern; they set the fare but that’s not the same thing.

(I wouldn’t use the ticket if it were restricted to Northern services only)

Generally, the Duo fares are only restricted to Northern where another TOC sets the interavailable fares. As Northern set the fares for Buxton to Manchester, the Duo fares are interavailable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Generally, the Duo fares are only restricted to Northern where another TOC sets the interavailable fares. As Northern set the fares for Buxton to Manchester, the Duo fares are interavailable.

This being because if a TOC sets the interavailable fares it is not allowed to set specific ones other than Advances, which is to prevent them setting the unregulated interavailable ones stupidly high to abuse their position in an anticompetitive manner.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Presumably just the one Advance tickets isn't ever available on this Buxton -> Manchester flow that would enable a two hour break of journey at Stockport, you'd need two advances for that?!

 

[Watershed]

Presumably just the one Advance tickets isn't ever available on this Buxton -> Manchester flow that would enable a two hour break of journey at Stockport, you'd need two advances for that?!

Not necessarily - if the itinerary on your Advance states you are to wait 2 hours at an intermediate station, you are entitled - indeed required - to do so.

TrainSplit may be helpful in obtaining a ticket with such an itinerary, using the advanced options to force a change at Stockport, with 99 minutes added onto the minimum interchange time there for example.

In a situation that only makes sense in the parallel universe of the railway, there are Advances from Buxton to Manchester, and even Stockport to Manchester (a journey of under 10 minutes). But not from Buxton to Stockport!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably just the one Advance tickets isn't ever available on this Buxton -> Manchester flow that would enable a two hour break of journey at Stockport, you'd need two advances for that?!

Advances don't allow break of journey, so you might have difficulty getting through the gateline at Stockport as most of the station facilities you might legitimately use are inside the gateline. However if you book one with a two hour layover via the likes of Trainsplit and remain on the station for that period (as some enthusiasts might), that is somewhere between totally legit and not enforceable.

 

[Watershed]

Advances don't allow break of journey, so you might have difficulty getting through the gateline at Stockport as most of the station facilities you might legitimately use are inside the gateline. However if you book one with a two hour layover via the likes of Trainsplit and remain on the station for that period (as some enthusiasts might), that is somewhere between totally legit and not enforceable.

There is a WH Smiths opposite (but on the non-paid side of) the eastern barriers. That's a station facility so you could quite legitimately ask to be let out to have a browse around there. Or to go for a smoke, or basically any one of a million excuses if you feel you need to give one.

 

[skyhigh]

However if you book one with a two hour layover via the likes of Trainsplit and remain on the station for that period (as some enthusiasts might), that is somewhere between totally legit and not enforceable.

I've never tried that, but I always assumed it would just issue 2 advances in effect making it separate 'legs'?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've never tried that, but I always assumed it would just issue 2 advances in effect making it separate 'legs'?

Not tried it either but I would expect it to issue one if you turned splits off. With them on it'll do whatever is cheaper.

 

[Watershed]

I've never tried that, but I always assumed it would just issue 2 advances in effect making it separate 'legs'?

Nope, there is nothing in the electronic data restrictions for Advances which requires the booked itinerary to be the fastest available one. The restrictions are really quite rudimentary, certainly compared to the verbose rules that legacy air carriers apply to the sale of their tickets.

There can be all sorts of unintended consequences as a result, including "XYZ & Connections" Advances being issued for an itinerary where only a tiny fraction of the journey is made on XYZ services.

This is an area where TrainSplit frequently suggests cheaper options without even needing to split - for example if you're travelling from from York to London, a cheaper tier of Advance is often available if you change onto a Thameslink service at Peterborough or Stevenage.

Now equally it may be the case that it is cheaper to split at the point where you have an "extended interchange". But TrainSplit will work out which is the cheaper option, and suggest that.

 

[skyhigh]

Nope, there is nothing in the electronic data restrictions for Advances which requires the booked itinerary to be the fastest available one. The restrictions are really quite rudimentary, certainly compared to the verbose rules that legacy air carriers apply to the sale of their tickets.

There can be all sorts of unintended consequences as a result, including "XYZ & Connections" Advances being issued for an itinerary where only a tiny fraction of the journey is made on XYZ services.

This is an area where TrainSplit frequently suggests cheaper options without even needing to split - for example if you're travelling from from York to London, a cheaper tier of Advance is often available if you change onto a Thameslink service at Peterborough or Stevenage.

Now equally it may be the case that it is cheaper to split at the point where you have an "extended interchange". But TrainSplit will work out which is the cheaper option, and suggest that.

That's very interesting, thanks.

 

[yorkie]

Presumably just the one Advance tickets isn't ever available on this Buxton -> Manchester flow that would enable a two hour break of journey at Stockport, you'd need two advances for that?!

Advance fares do not allow break of journey.

Any other fare would be valid for break of journey at Stockport and any advertised train may be used, regardless of train operating company.

 

[Class800]

But if there are two separate Advance fares split at Stockport, it would be permissible to leave the station on the first ticket (ending its journey) and re-enter on the second ticket (starting its journey)

 

[yorkie]

But if there are two separate Advance fares split at Stockport, it would be permissible to leave the station on the first ticket (ending its journey) and re-enter on the second ticket (starting its journey)

Of course

 

[Bensonby]

No, the restriction was changed years ago, it's probably down to ORCATS, but Virgin Trains used to pick up passengers at Stockport, Avanti West Coast continues to do so, and the services are advertised on the departure boards at Stockport also. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...9/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=VT for example for today:

(And it was never enforced anyway, I used to hop on Manchester-bound express trains at Stockport in the 1970s and it was never a problem)

The attachment shows today's VT (Avanti) trains which pick up at Stockport with destination of Manchester, basically all of them ......
View attachment 112242

Many thanks for the clarification. I used to use that line weekly, but it was quite a few years ago now.