Break of journey with different routes possible

[XmaX]

We all know that break of journey is generally permitted, as is short stopping. On a route A-B-C-D-E I can therefore travel A-B, and then D-E on one ticket (within the validity of course).

But what happens if a ticket allows for different routes? For example, Cambridge-London: can I travel Cambridge-Royston, and then Harlow Town-London Liverpool Street? If so, would there be a point where it'd not be valid? Surely, if I travel Cambridge-Finsbury Park, then I wouldn't be allowed to then travel Shelford-Liverpool Street. Or would I?

 

[Bletchleyite]

We all know that break of journey is generally permitted, as is short stopping. On a route A-B-C-D-E I can therefore travel A-B, and then D-E on one ticket (within the validity of course).

But what happens if a ticket allows for different routes? For example, Cambridge-London: can I travel Cambridge-Royston, and then Harlow Town-London Liverpool Street? If so, would there be a point where it'd not be valid? Surely, if I travel Cambridge-Finsbury Park, then I wouldn't be allowed to then travel Shelford-Liverpool Street. Or would I?

With a paper ticket it's unlikely this would be detected. But you can follow one, and only one, Permitted Route, and break along that line of route, you can't swap between Permitted Routes other than on a common section.

 

[Haywain]

Surely, if I travel Cambridge-Finsbury Park, then I wouldn't be allowed to then travel Shelford-Liverpool Street. Or would I?

No, absolutely not.

 

[Gaelan]

With a paper ticket it's unlikely this would be detected. But you can follow one, and only one, Permitted Route, and break along that line of route, you can't swap between Permitted Routes other than on a common section.

Out of curiosity, are there any situations where A-B-C-D-E and A-X-C-Y-E are permitted routes, but A-B-C-Y-E (or A-X-C-D-E) are not permitted?

 

[Gathursty]

Interesting question. I think my local example would be Wigan to Manchester but travel to Westhoughton then walk to Daisy Hill to continue my journey. Not sure why I'd need to do it but practically both stations are unbarriered and unstaffed so that'd probably work.

 

[kieron]

Out of curiosity, are there any situations where A-B-C-D-E and A-X-C-Y-E are permitted routes, but A-B-C-Y-E (or A-X-C-D-E) are not permitted?

There must be quite a few, but a Stalybridge-Pembroke anytime day single is one example. Fine via Manchester, Shrewsbury and Hereford (link) or via Denton, Shrewsbury and Llandovery (link). Not permitted via Manchester and Llandovery or via Denton and Hereford.

If these links open correctly, the first option listed for each should be valid (and cost £106.10), and the second shouldn't be.

* You may need to delete any ojp.nationalrail.co.uk cookies you have before loading each link for it to open correctly.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Not allowed under the current rules, but may be undetectable or even tolerated in certain circumstances e.g hopping off at Giggleswick and then resuming at Settle. If the railway wanted to accommodate passengers wanting to do this then there would have to be some kind of a Fares Check at the break and resume points to stop people abusing the system. I can’t see it happening though as it would add yet another layer of complexity to the already complicated Routeing Guide rules.

 

[Gaelan]

There must be quite a few, but a Stalybridge-Pembroke anytime day single is one example. Fine via Manchester, Shrewsbury and Hereford (link) or via Denton, Shrewsbury and Llandovery (link). Not permitted via Manchester and Llandovery or via Denton and Hereford.

If these links open correctly, the first option listed for each should be valid (and cost £106.10), and the second shouldn't be.

* You may need to delete any ojp.nationalrail.co.uk cookies you have before loading each link for it to open correctly.

Fascinating, thanks. Can't imagine there's any good reason for this, but I suppose it's inevitable with the complexity of the routeing guide.

 

[JB_B]

Fascinating, thanks. Can't imagine there's any good reason for this, but I suppose it's inevitable with the complexity of the routeing guide.

In this example the route via Llandovery is only valid by the shortest route rule so if you go that way you're locked into Denton and can't use the mapped routes ( such as via Manchester.) It would make sense for this journey and similar to get a map combination +HW.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of an example which matches the pattern in post #4 where all the routes are mapped.

 

[Llandudno]

Not allowed under the current rules, but may be undetectable or even tolerated in certain circumstances e.g hopping off at Giggleswick and then resuming at Settle. If the railway wanted to accommodate passengers wanting to do this then there would have to be some kind of a Fares Check at the break and resume points to stop people abusing the system. I can’t see it happening though as it would add yet another layer of complexity to the already complicated Routeing Guide rules.

There are two stations in New Mills on different lines.
New Mills Newtown is on the Buxton line
New Mills Central on the Hope Valley line

Can you buy a day return from say, Manchester to one New Mills station and return from the other?

Logic would suggest you should be able to but the fares are different!
Manchester to New Mills Newtown OPDR £8.20
Manchester to New Mills Central OPDR £9.00

I suppose the £8.20 ticket wouldn’t be valid but perhaps the £9.00 should be?

 

[Watershed]

There are two stations in New Mills on different lines.
New Mills Newtown is on the Buxton line
New Mills Central on the Hope Valley line

Can you buy a day return from say, Manchester to one New Mills station and return from the other?

Logic would suggest you should be able to but the fares are different!
Manchester to New Mills Newtown OPDR £8.20
Manchester to New Mills Central OPDR £9.00

I suppose the £8.20 ticket wouldn’t be valid but perhaps the £9.00 should be?

No; there is no "New Mills" station group. You could buy a ticket to somewhere further away, like Chinley, and then avail of the fixed link between the stations, but that would cost more than buying a ticket to either station. (This doesn't work with a ticket to Furness Vale as this is explicitly routed via Stockport, and almost all Hope Valley stoppers run via Romiley).

 

[Llandudno]

No; there is no "New Mills" station group. You could buy a ticket to somewhere further away, like Chinley, and then avail of the fixed link between the stations, but that would cost more than buying a ticket to either station. (This doesn't work with a ticket to Furness Vale as this is explicitly routed via Stockport, and almost all Hope Valley stoppers run via Romiley).

Perhaps there ought be a New Mills station group though…?

The two stations are about a mile apart, there is quite a steep hill to both stations so some people may prefer walking downhill to board at New Mills Central and then alight at Newtown on the return so they can walk downhill back into New Mills town centre!

 

[Watershed]

Perhaps there ought be a New Mills station group though…?

The two stations are about a mile apart, there is quite a steep hill to both stations so some people may prefer walking downhill to board at New Mills Central and then alight at Newtown on the return so they can walk downhill back into New Mills town centre!

That sounds far too sensible and customer-centric! Today's railway is more myopic and disjointed than ever, despite falling entirely under the control of the DfT (in all relevant respects).

It's the kind of common sense you see in other countries that do more than paying lip service to providing effective public transport. The sad thing is it would cost next to nothing, in the scheme of things, to make it happen. There's just nobody that has the authority and interest to make it happen.

 

[yorkie]

Not allowed under the current rules, but may be undetectable or even tolerated in certain circumstances e.g hopping off at Giggleswick and then resuming at Settle. If the railway wanted to accommodate passengers wanting to do this then there would have to be some kind of a Fares Check at the break and resume points to stop people abusing the system. I can’t see it happening though as it would add yet another layer of complexity to the already complicated Routeing Guide rules.

Not quite; all it would need is for a fixed link to exist between the two.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps there ought be a New Mills station group though…?

There are a fair few station groups that really should exist.

Should be a good topic for a new thread, here you go:

Station groups that should exist but don't

This thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/break-of-journey-with-different-routes-possible.256666/#post-6477303 ...identifies some cases where it really would make sense to treat some adjacent or nearby stations as one for fares and routeing purposes, but this is presently not the case...

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