Breaking a return journey early

[Pumperkin]

Hi all,

I'm looking at doing Kidderminster -> Wolverton, then following day Milton Keynes Central (MKC) -> Kidderminster the following day (Saturday morning, Sunday daytime).

If I was to buy an off-peak return to MKC, can I hop out at Wolverton? I would be travelling from Wolverton to Milton Keynes itself via local bus rather than train - but obviously a single to Wolverton then a single the following day would be more than the return ticket.

The station at Wolverton is unbarriered, so whilst I think it should be possible, I want to check it's a valid thing to do if possible.

TIA

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hi all,

I'm looking at doing Kidderminster -> Wolverton, then following day Milton Keynes Central (MKC) -> Kidderminster the following day (Saturday morning, Sunday daytime).

If I was to buy an off-peak return to MKC, can I hop out at Wolverton? I would be travelling from Wolverton to Milton Keynes itself via local bus rather than train - but obviously a single to Wolverton then a single the following day would be more than the return ticket.

The station at Wolverton is unbarriered, so whilst I think it should be possible, I want to check it's a valid thing to do if possible.

TIA

It depends on which ticket you get. Most Off-Peak tickets permit break of journey on both portions, and all permit it on the return portion. However, the 'WMR/LNR only' Off-Peak tickets bar break of journey on the outward portion, so you should not be stopping short at Wolverton. That being said, I think WMT have a very relaxed policy on those restrictions, and I would be surprised if you weren't given permission to stop short either by Customer Services (e.g. via Twitter) or by the conductor on board.

The theoretical problem of breaking your journey where you aren't permitted to, can be avoided by buying your ticket to Wolverton, which costs the same as one to Milton Keynes. A ticket from Kidderminster to Wolverton is also valid to double back via Milton Keynes, and the return portion of a 'WMR/LNR only' ticket lets you break your journey, so you can start 'late' at Milton Keynes and should be able to get an itinerary via Milton Keynes on any booking site.

Whether you would have any problems at the barrier line at Milton Keynes I don't know, but this is the technically correct way of doing things. Isn't it silly - to comply with the rail industry's ridiculous rules and to have an entirely valid ticket, you have to undergo the risk of having additional hassle!

 

[Pumperkin]

It depends on which ticket you get. Most Off-Peak tickets permit break of journey on both portions, and all permit it on the return portion. However, the 'WMR/LNR only' Off-Peak tickets bar break of journey on the outward portion, so you should not be stopping short at Wolverton. That being said, I think WMT have a very relaxed policy on those restrictions, and I would be surprised if you weren't given permission to stop short either by Customer Services (e.g. via Twitter) or by the conductor on board.

The theoretical problem of breaking your journey where you aren't permitted to, can be avoided by buying your ticket to Wolverton, which costs the same as one to Milton Keynes. A ticket from Kidderminster to Wolverton is also valid to double back via Milton Keynes, and the return portion of a 'WMR/LNR only' ticket lets you break your journey, so you can start 'late' at Milton Keynes and should be able to get an itinerary via Milton Keynes on any booking site.

Whether you would have any problems at the barrier line at Milton Keynes I don't know, but this is the technically correct way of doing things. Isn't it silly - to comply with the rail industry's ridiculous rules and to have an entirely valid ticket, you have to undergo the risk of having additional hassle!

Thanks for your swift and comprehensive response.

I wasn't aware you could double-back Wolverton to MK - is this because there are fewer trains from Wolverton? There are direct trains BHM to Wolverton so seems strange you can elongate your journey via MKC...

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thanks for your swift and comprehensive response.

I wasn't aware you could double-back Wolverton to MK - is this because there are fewer trains from Wolverton? There are direct trains BHM to Wolverton so seems strange you can elongate your journey via MKC...

It's because of the vagaries of the National Routeing Guide, which determines the valid routes you can use a ticket on, apart from on a direct train or along the shortest route.

It shows these routes using a system of maps. These maps show links between different Routeing Points - there are fewer Routeing Points than stations, to simplify stretches of track which don't have any other lines you could diverge onto. Each station is associated with one or more Routeing Points, or is itself one.

Wolverton is associated with Rugby, Northampton and Milton Keynes Routeing Points (and Kidderminster with Smethwick and Worcester). There is a set of calculations used to work out which associated Routeing Points are permissible for each combination of origin and destination, but there is a calculator here which will work it out for you (note, you also need to enter the route as this can sometimes affect the results. 'WMR/LNR only' fares are still shown under the old 'LDN MIDLAND ONLY').

You will therefore see that if you enter Kidderminster to Wolverton, route 'LDN MIDLAND ONLY', Smethwick is the only appropriate Routeing Point for Kidderminster, but for Wolverton any of its three associated Routeing Points are appropriate. Therefore you can take any of the mapped routes to Milton Keynes, and then the shortest route from Milton Keynes to Wolverton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whether you would have any problems at the barrier line at Milton Keynes I don't know, but this is the technically correct way of doing things. Isn't it silly - to comply with the rail industry's ridiculous rules and to have an entirely valid ticket, you have to undergo the risk of having additional hassle!

I would buy the ticket to MKC. Wolverton is not barriered, revenue checks there are rare, and as it isn't an Advance if they do get funny about it (and LNR are not prosecution happy, at least from LM days, they just do PFs for most things) you can just return to the platform, travel to MKC and take a taxi or bus (or train on a new ticket) back.

The other option, while valid, is far more likely to get you hassle, as there is basically no "normal" reason to do it on a LNR ticket as most trains call at Wolverton. It would be a sensible thing to do were you using VT from Brum, of course, but on a LNR/WMT ticket it's only valid because there isn't a different Routeing Guide for TOC specific fares, not because it's a sensible thing to do.

For what it's worth, the BoJ restrictions on the LNR/WMT tickets, which at one stage were in *both* directions, exist only to stop the use of a cheaper long distance ticket for a shorter more expensive journey (silly as that is). They don't care about you ending a *bit* short at a station that has the same fare. Just as I've been *sold* one with the origin of Bletchley at MKC with no doubt in anyone's mind that it was for immediate use (but was being done so I could go back to Bletchley on the return).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I would buy the ticket to MKC. Wolverton is not barriered, revenue checks there are rare, and as it isn't an Advance if they do get funny about it (and LNR are not prosecution happy, at least from LM days, they just do PFs for most things) you can just return to the platform, travel to MKC and take a taxi or bus (or train on a new ticket) back.

The other option, while valid, is far more likely to get you hassle.

Indeed - you have the choice between the 100% theoretically correct option, which is likely to end you up with hassle, or the practically speaking correct option, which is isn't theoretically correct!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed - you have the choice between the 100% theoretically correct option, which is likely to end you up with hassle, or the practically speaking correct option, which is isn't theoretically correct!

The railway is a funny place, isn't it?

There is a third option of purchasing an additional MKC-Wolverton single but not doing the physical double back which sometimes gets suggested in these cases, but I'd only bother doing that with an Advance where you could get stuck otherwise with a PF being the only option. With walk-ups provided you're willing to go "right, then, I'll go to MKC and back if you insist" with a bit of a sigh, there's no actual penalty that can sensibly be applied.

I'd still say just get the MKC ticket and end early. I'm confident enough that you won't get any kind of penalty that I'd *almost* offer to pay it if you did

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The railway is a funny place, isn't it?

There is a third option of purchasing an additional MKC-Wolverton single but not doing the physical double back which sometimes gets suggested in these cases, but I'd only bother doing that with an Advance where you could get stuck otherwise with a PF being the only option. With walk-ups provided you're willing to go "right, then, I'll go to MKC and back if you insist" with a bit of a sigh, there's no actual penalty that can sensibly be applied.

I'd still say just get the MKC ticket and end early. I'm confident enough that you won't get any kind of penalty that I'd *almost* offer to pay it if you did

Regardless of the ticket type, a Penalty Fare isn't appropriate for breaking your journey where that's not permitted - the only 'penalty' is (theoretically) having to pay the excess to the cheapest ticket permitting BoJ.

 

[Pumperkin]

Just as a slight curveball, I may drive to Stourbridge Junction (SBJ) and avail myself of the free carpark. The fuel is offset by the £6 fee to park at Kidderminster, and there are more trains from Moor Street to SBJ than KID (some terminate at SBJ rather than continuing to KID, and also some stop at every stop on that line (c'mon Lye people, just go to SBJ and save us having to stop.. there's like 2 of you.)

I presume the same things apply? There are advance tickets on this line however it's negligible in price difference compared to having the flexibility (might be useful on the return). I might also have a 26-30 railcard as well which brings the off peak return with a few pounds of advances.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Just as a slight curveball, I may drive to Stourbridge Junction (SBJ) and avail myself of the free carpark. The fuel is offset by the £6 fee to park at Kidderminster, and there are more trains from Moor Street to SBJ than KID (some terminate at SBJ rather than continuing to KID, and also some stop at every stop on that line (c'mon Lye people, just go to SBJ and save us having to stop.. there's like 2 of you.)

I presume the same things apply? There are advance tickets on this line however it's negligible in price difference compared to having the flexibility (might be useful on the return). I might also have a 26-30 railcard as well which brings the off peak return with a few pounds of advances.

Yes, the same appropriate Routeing Points apply for both SBJ and KID. You can check it on the Routeing Point Calculator if you want to double check.

On the weekend, the 26-30 Railcard offers the same discount on an Off-Peak Return as on Advances. It's only during the morning weekday peak (before 10am) that the £12 minimum fare may affect this - as Advances are exempt from the minimum fare.

 

[Pumperkin]

Just had a look into the fares with railcard

KID-WOL-KID Off peak return is £28.20
KID-WOL-KID 2 x advance = around £25 depending on train.

SBJ-WOL-KID OPR = £28.20
SBJ-WOL-SBJ 2 x advance = around £22.

Any idea why the advance fees are different, whereas it can be seen the OPR is the same? It's not the KID-BMO bit that's really the advance AFAIK, it's the BHM-WOL bit (unless I'm mistaken, there's no such thing as an advance from KID or SBJ to Birmingham).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Just had a look into the fares with railcard

KID-WOL-KID Off peak return is £28.20
KID-WOL-KID 2 x advance = around £25 depending on train.

SBJ-WOL-KID OPR = £28.20
SBJ-WOL-SBJ 2 x advance = around £22.

Any idea why the advance fees are different, whereas it can be seen the OPR is the same? It's not the KID-BMO bit that's really the advance AFAIK, it's the BHM-WOL bit (unless I'm mistaken, there's no such thing as an advance from KID or SBJ to Birmingham).

It's better to use the official acronyms - OPR is the three letter code that refers to the 'WMR/LNR only' Super Off-Peak Returns, rather confusingly. If you're referring to the 'Any Permitted' or 'WMR/LNR only' Off-Peak Return, the three letter code for that is SVR.

I can't see any reason why the prices of Advances would be significantly different between the different origins, as they are both in the same pricing cluster.

Are you aware that the the WMT/LNR only Super Off-Peak Return is very inexpensive (£10.30)?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Just to add you definitely can't start or finish short with Advance tickets. But if you know exactly which trains you want, the outbound advance to Wolverton and the return starting at Milton Keynes would solve your worries.

The WMT/LNR Only super off peak is very good value if you can abide by the very strict restrictions though.

 

[Pumperkin]

Arctic Troll Established Member
Are you aware that the the WMT/LNR only Super Off-Peak Return is very inexpensive (£10.30)?


... I'm trying to find this but struggling. I need to arrive by 11 at Wolverton - I can return any time on Sunday. On WMT website it doesn't seem to be showing the Super Off Peak Returns :/

 

[Pumperkin]

The WMT/LNR Only super off peak is very good value if you can abide by the very strict restrictions though.

Just to add - this is for travel in August so I'm aware tickets won't be available yet - I like to be prepared

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Arctic Troll Established Member
Are you aware that the the WMT/LNR only Super Off-Peak Return is very inexpensive (£10.30)?


... I'm trying to find this but struggling. I need to arrive by 11 at Wolverton - I can return any time on Sunday. On WMT website it doesn't seem to be showing the Super Off Peak Returns :/

Unfortunately the WMR/LNR only Super Off-Peak Returns have restrictions even on a Saturday! (Though somewhat understandable given the price)

To get you into Wolverton by 11am, you need to be on the 10:36 or 11:16 arrivals. These arrive into London at 11:25 and 12:17 respectively - both before the 13:00 cutoff for that ticket.

You can see the full restrictions at nationalrail.co.uk/LG, but basically, there is no way you can arrive into Wolverton early enough on that ticket unfortunately.