There have been some incredibly unpleasant and mean spirited views expressed on this thread. I would have thought (and hoped) that offering a seat to someone who is carrying a very young child - whether breastfeeding or not - was a level of basic politeness that we all shared.
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Breastfeeding Mother Forced to Stand on Train
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Robin Edwards
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I expect same news provider will now provide a headline story, "male, middle aged man deeply offended when sternly rebuffed after offering seat to woman with small child"
I'm happy to be considered out of touch, old fashioned and will insist on doing nothing more than smiling if anyone told me to f*** off as I offered them my seat. I was brought up to show some manners and if I think there is someone of any age or gender that I may perceive as be more needing of my seat than me, then I'll make the offer. No is absolutely fine as an answer.
May be I ask differently or just travel different places to everyone else but I've been offering seats to people all my life and I can honestly say that I've never even come close to being told to f*** off as a result.
I'm happy to be considered out of touch, old fashioned and will insist on doing nothing more than smiling if anyone told me to f*** off as I offered them my seat. I was brought up to show some manners and if I think there is someone of any age or gender that I may perceive as be more needing of my seat than me, then I'll make the offer. No is absolutely fine as an answer.
May be I ask differently or just travel different places to everyone else but I've been offering seats to people all my life and I can honestly say that I've never even come close to being told to f*** off as a result.
Killingworth
Established Member
Yes. Presumably that's why they are wearing the badges.
Personally I was brought up to offer a seat to any older person. However by now I think I count as an older person myself (over 60, just, but people tell me I look more like 50) and I also have health issues (not visible) which limit my fitness to stand.
A few months ago a young lady (20ish) offered me her seat on a Merseyrail service.I declined. And found it quite amusing. But very thoughtful of her.
I can empathise with that being a little older. On a packed then Virgin service from York earlier this summer I could find no seat so did a Corbyn and happily sat in the end vestibule next to a young American couple. Nearing Northallerton a young lady came and offered me her seat. I hope I declined politely, and was able to take a vacated seat at Darlington. However, I observed a number of others in that carriage being very reluctant to allow the vacant seats next to them to be cleared of all their gear to allow anyone else to sit next to them, including those with reservations.
Which brings us to the lady in the train. Society has changed over the last 50 years and breast feeding has become far more common in public areas. Yes, she's making quite a lot of it, but far too many people today are willing to turn a blind eye to anyone who may need only a modest bit of help and consideration. Someone else could/should help, why me? And it seems not a few were showing tacit disapproval by looking the other way. But if an offer of a seat has previously been turned down rudely, it can put one off offering again.
Several issues beyond manners help create the problems. Overcrowded trains. Lack of space for luggage and bags................
Esker-pades
Established Member
That slightly misses the point. The objections are more nuanced than that. IE: Going to the media about it, not asking, possibly rejecting an offer of a seat and then getting annoyed when the other commuters don't realise that she is suddenly in need of a seat, the fact she has a blog, the fact that she could take a selfie whilst "struggling".
I would estimate that most forum members (if they don't suffer from mobility issues themselves), would be prepared to give up seats, and many have expressed that they would.
Journeyman
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Good grief, I'm all for good manners, but what century were you born in?
shredder1
Established Member
Yes well said, I was born on planet Earth too thank goodness.
Society has moved on a lot recently, even just in the last 50 years. I was born in 2002 and expect everyone to be treated equally, regardless of sex, race etc. There is no reason why a 25 year old woman is less able to stand than a 25 year old man in the same circumstances and to offer a seat to a woman but not a man is surely sexism. Women have been campaigning for equal rights for many years and offering seats to women but not men is clearly a step in the wrong direction in this respect. The obvious exception in this argument is if the person standing is elderly (in which case it may be harder for them to stand than a fit 25 year old for example) or has some sort of disability. Would your view change if the person standing was a healthy 20 year old woman but the person sat was (say) a 50 year old man?
I've offered my seat to many people on trains before and have had mixed responses, but would definitely not only offer women seats, or only men (the last time I offered someone my seat was last Friday in fact, and it was a man so he and his wife could sit together on the train instead of him having to stand in the vestibule). 9 times out of 10 I will vacate a seat if asked too. What I really don't understand is why it's good manners to offer women seats if it isn't good manners to offer men seats.
Anyway, going back to the topic at hand, I would've offered my seat to the lady in question if on the train because, with these circumstances, it is the right thing to do and she clearly needed the seat more than me. There was however no reason for her not to ask for a seat as any reasonable person would've moved if she'd explained why she needed one.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Tell me more about Leeds on a saturday night
Believe me, it is nowhere near as glamorous as the previous post suggests.... <shudder>
shredder1
Established Member
Well society has certainly moved on, but I`m not convinced its moved in the right direction, some aspects are clearly moving towards the U-bend.
I cant resist any longer ..My breastfeeding incident . "tin hat on"....
On a Scotrail 158. Sat at table . Largish East European woman , I think Russian , with child and baby joined the train . She had no English , her 6/7 year old did the talking /translation buying the tickets. She sat opposite me at the table placed her baby on the table before me . She pulled up her top fully exposing and dropping both her breasts on to the table . Erica Rowe was small in comparison ! No subtle or discrete exposure in this case and started feeding her quite mature baby . I felt I was intruding and uncomfortable and was too close to the action . I got up and spent rest of journey standing in another carriage . I have no problem with breast feeding as its common in restaurants and airports Im not saying its wrong . I did ask the guard what Scotrails policy was on breast feeding more out of interest not as a prelude to a complaint . He then said she is with in her rights and if I had a problem it was my problem. I did not argue , but he did not witness the extent of the display which was not your typical breastfeeding mother . So in response to the post above , in the main I agree, but not in my case !!
There's a clear rank order: disabled lady > disabled gentleman > elderly lady > elderly gentleman > young lady > young gentleman.
Where young people with children should be is left as an exercise for the reader...
There's a clear rank order: disabled lady > disabled gentleman > elderly lady > elderly gentleman > young lady > young gentleman.
Where young people with children should be is left as an exercise for the reader...
Should that not just be:
Disabled > elderly > young.
If they have a disability what difference should it make if they are male or female? Surely the person with the greatest need should get the seat?
It's moved towards genuine equality, which includes having the same right to a seat as a man. I'd say that's a large step forward, and offering a woman a seat just because she's a woman is still setting men and women apart. Why should it not be the other way round, with women offering men seats? Because it's backwards, and behaviour such as that has no place in the 21st century. I'm sure many people would consider a social obligation such as that sexism so why wouldn't it be so the other way round?
I fully agree with @FGW_DID above - why should a disabled lady have a higher 'rank' than a disabled man, the same applying to elderly and young people? Why is a young lady less able to stand than a young man? They're not, so don't deserve a seat any more than a young man.There's a clear rank order: disabled lady > disabled gentleman > elderly lady > elderly gentleman > young lady > young gentleman.
Where young people with children should be is left as an exercise for the reader...
All other things being equal, the female is more likely to have a greater need for it.
Denying that simple fact for fear of being labelled sexist is just one part of the joyless, soulless society we seem determined to hurtle towards.
I'm not sure it is missing the point. Most of the reasons put forward for not offering a seat would not have been apparant to the woman's fellow passengers, and so would not have excused them refusing to do so.
philthetube
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Back sort of on topic, I would have thought that on a busy train there would be quite a high risk of being knocked while feeding and this could be painful to the mother, and possibly child.
I would have thought that with trains every 10/15 minutes that to attempt to breast feed was a bad idea, different story on a long journey.
I would have thought that with trains every 10/15 minutes that to attempt to breast feed was a bad idea, different story on a long journey.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
Tell me more about Leeds on a saturday night
The breast exposure is unlikely to be related to the feeding of infants...
Intermodal
Established Member
Can you explain this ridiculously sexist statement? Perhaps give some evidence of why a female would generally be in greater need than a male? This is the textbook definition of sexism.
Robertj21a
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I expect same news provider will now provide a headline story, "male, middle aged man deeply offended when sternly rebuffed after offering seat to woman with small child"
I'm happy to be considered out of touch, old fashioned and will insist on doing nothing more than smiling if anyone told me to f*** off as I offered them my seat. I was brought up to show some manners and if I think there is someone of any age or gender that I may perceive as be more needing of my seat than me, then I'll make the offer. No is absolutely fine as an answer.
May be I ask differently or just travel different places to everyone else but I've been offering seats to people all my life and I can honestly say that I've never even come close to being told to f*** off as a result.
I guess you don't travel much in London ?
Esker-pades
Established Member
None of them refused to vacate their seats. She refused a seat initially when offered, according to one source.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Wholly agreed.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Er, why?
northwichcat
Veteran Member
So you're saying a 32 year old man with a height of 5 ft 8 and BMI of 22 who is travelling with his toddler son needs a seat less than a 32 year old woman with the same height and BMI who is travelling with her toddler daughter?
Several posters have suggested that it was entirely the decision of the mother to feed her baby. I would suggest that it is much more likely that the baby made it noisely clear that it wanted fed. And that the nearby passengers should be very grateful that she did.
A sensible post! The alternative to brestfeeding is the passengers putting up with a shrieking baby for the entirety of the journey, and passengers tutting under their collective breath the whole way.
OK, that experience is probably a bit much for many people, but very much the exception rather than the rule in Britain (plus some other countries nationals are much less 'British' in their reaction when confronted with something perfectly natural like Breastfeeding.)
Elecman
Established Member
Reminds me of a newspaper series cartoon (either in The Times or The Telegraph). Th3 central character was a thoroughly unpleasant City Banker character who in the cartoon offered his seat to a frail old lady then suddenly exclaimed oh no what have I done, people will think I work for BR.
I would (and frequently do) offer my seat to anyone who I consider would be in need of it more. Notably older people, those with injuries or mothers (OR FATHERS!) carrying babies or young children. I wouldn’t offer a woman a seat just because they’re a woman. One of my female friends was offered a seat whilst I was on the train with her and she was mortified. She just smiled and said ‘I’m fine standing’ to the gentleman who offered. Yes, there might be a nice intention behind it but as my friend said, being a woman isn’t a handicap and it is incredibly sexist to assume that someone deserves the seat more because of their gender.
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