Brexit makes it very difficult to move to another country and get employment

[radamfi]

If you've got young kids or plan to have them and want to give your kids the best possible opportunity in life, you probably ought to be considering moving to Ireland (or even somewhere else in the EU if you can get a visa) so that your kids can get a European Union nationality. Then they won't have to post on a thread like this in the future.

I’m not sure how much convergence there has been in the existing EU nations. There’s a noticeable gap in GDP per capita between the Northern countries such as Germany or the Scandinavians, and the Southern ones like Spain and Greece. Especially with the Eurozone there’s a definite tension between the different economies that no longer have the release of currency fluctuations.

There doesn't seem to be much migration between northern and southern Europe though. Probably because most EU countries have prosperous areas within them even if they are poorer on average. For example, people from the poor areas of southern Italy can migrate to the wealthy region around Milan. Same is now becoming true for the former Communist countries. Polish people are now flocking from the countryside to the major Polish cities where good jobs are now available, so there is less of a desire to go abroad. Maybe not paying as much as in Germany or the UK but because of the lower cost of living they can now enjoy an almost western European standard of living without needing to travel far away from friends and family.

 

[takno]

There doesn't seem to be much migration between northern and southern Europe though. Probably because most EU countries have prosperous areas within them even if they are poorer on average. For example, people from the poor areas of southern Italy can migrate to the wealthy region around Milan. Same is now becoming true for the former Communist countries. Polish people are now flocking from the countryside to the major Polish cities where good jobs are now available, so there is less of a desire to go abroad. Maybe not paying as much as in Germany or the UK but because of the lower cost of living they can now enjoy an almost western European standard of living without needing to travel far away from friends and family.

There's a lot of movement of Ukranians into Poland as well, often filling the roles which it is harder to recruit Polish people to do. Germany is also opening its labour market to Bosnians. It all shows that this isn't just an EU thing, and isn't primarily driven by free movement. It's more a natural progression as countries get richer.

 

[RT4038]

There's a lot of movement of Ukranians into Poland as well, often filling the roles which it is harder to recruit Polish people to do. Germany is also opening its labour market to Bosnians. It all shows that this isn't just an EU thing, and isn't primarily driven by free movement. It's more a natural progression as countries get richer.

Quite so. Southern Italians came to work in South Wales and the brickyards of the Bedford area prior to EU membership. Turks went to Germany. Algerians and Yugoslavs to France. Brits have not really gone in any number to do ordinary work in Europe (aside from contract work on building sites [immortalised by Auf Wiedersehn, Pet], not settling with family), but certainly did to other parts of the world. Brits have gone in numbers to parts of France and Spain, but only peripherally taking part in the local labour market. (Such as catering for UK tourists).

It is a natural progression, and nothing wrong with it, unless the numbers, and concentrations, are not controlled, putting the economic and social security of the inhabitants of the host country at risk. Then there is trouble, as we well know.

 

[takno]

It is a natural progression, and nothing wrong with it, unless the numbers, and concentrations, are not controlled, putting the economic and social security of the inhabitants of the host country at risk. Then there is trouble, as we well know.

That's certainly your belief. Other people may more accurately characterise it as a need to manage the expectations of the population of the host country, and not set up the incomers to be blamed for all the ills of the host society.

 

[Aaron Hayward7]

Is it too late to cancel brexit?

 

[RT4038]

That's certainly your belief. Other people may more accurately characterise it as a need to manage the expectations of the population of the host country, and not set up the incomers to be blamed for all the ills of the host society.

Good luck with managing those expectations! There can't be many host societies (now or in recent history) that require an uncontrolled influx of incomers to the numbers that happened of the EU FoM Eastern Europeans to the UK. I am not sure that it can be an 'ill of the host country' that such an influx cannot be coped with without upsetting the host country population.

 

[matacaster]

Good luck with managing those expectations! There can't be many host societies (now or in recent history) that require an uncontrolled influx of incomers to the numbers that happened of the EU FoM Eastern Europeans to the UK. I am not sure that it can be an 'ill of the host country' that such an influx cannot be coped with without upsetting the host country population.

The UK is a small country land area wise and has a very high population density. I cannot see why we should accept large inward migration (which is still happening). Sadly its a ponzi scheme, those migrants who do a good shift then stay and eventually become old and need evermore migrants to look after them. Much of UK is actually open land, but migrants want to live in places like London. Scotland which has vast tracts of barren land hasn't exactly proven popular with migrants. There seems to be a difference of opinion between those on the left who see that anyone who wants to should be welcomed with open arms and those on the right who feel that a country belongs to those people already there and have built it and newcomers will only be welcomed where a need arises.

 

[radamfi]

The UK is a small country land area wise and has a very high population density. I cannot see why we should accept large inward migration (which is still happening). Sadly its a ponzi scheme, those migrants who do a good shift then stay and eventually become old and need evermore migrants to look after them. Much of UK is actually open land, but migrants want to live in places like London. Scotland which has vast tracts of barren land hasn't exactly proven popular with migrants. There seems to be a difference of opinion between those on the left who see that anyone who wants to should be welcomed with open arms and those on the right who feel that a country belongs to those people already there and have built it and newcomers will only be welcomed where a need arises.

The right act like they don't want immigration to attract votes but in reality they are aware that immigration in large quantities is required. Same goes for all western countries due to very low birth rates and acute skill shortages. Despite all the rhetoric about cutting immigration, the government has shown no sign of wanting to restrict non-EU immigration and are now actively making it easier with the new points system. The government know they have to make extra effort to attract immigration from outside the EU now because hardly anyone from the EU is going to want to come to the UK even if they can easily get a visa. Why come to Britain when you can go somewhere in the EU and be sure that you can stay there as long as you want? The UK has effectively shut the door on that source of immigration. So the government has even made it easy for millions from Hong Kong to come. Given that they have denied access to them for over 20 years, that shows how desperate the government is to attract migrants.

 

[takno]

The UK is a small country land area wise and has a very high population density. I cannot see why we should accept large inward migration (which is still happening). Sadly its a ponzi scheme, those migrants who do a good shift then stay and eventually become old and need evermore migrants to look after them. Much of UK is actually open land, but migrants want to live in places like London. Scotland which has vast tracts of barren land hasn't exactly proven popular with migrants. There seems to be a difference of opinion between those on the left who see that anyone who wants to should be welcomed with open arms and those on the right who feel that a country belongs to those people already there and have built it and newcomers will only be welcomed where a need arises.

There are lots of immigrants in Scotland, plenty of racists on the left, and quite a lot people with sensible attitudes to immigrants on the right.

 

[matacaster]

The right act like they don't want immigration to attract votes but in reality they are aware that immigration in large quantities is required. Same goes for all western countries due to very low birth rates and acute skill shortages. Despite all the rhetoric about cutting immigration, the government has shown no sign of wanting to restrict non-EU immigration and are now actively making it easier with the new points system. The government know they have to make extra effort to attract immigration from outside the EU now because hardly anyone from the EU is going to want to come to the UK even if they can easily get a visa. Why come to Britain when you can go somewhere in the EU and be sure that you can stay there as long as you want? The UK has effectively shut the door on that source of immigration. So the government has even made it easy for millions from Hong Kong to come. Given that they have denied access to them for over 20 years, that shows how desperate the government is to attract migrants.

This was the case, but take fruit / vegetable picking. Farmers won't pay what UK types think is a fair wage for arduous repetitive job. They arranged cheap hard-working labour from EU who thought it better than they got at home. The amount paid for labour was insufficient to encourage robotics people to think investing capital in making automated picking gear make sense - so they didn't. Now, the lack of cheap foreign labour (and lack of UK worker interest) means that some entrepreneurial types are at present experimenting with making automated picking machines... And yes they will succeed as they see a big prize at the end. (like our overstressed Gp's (pre-covid) who could suddenly cope with loads of vaccinations when advised its £10/jab, despite it arguably falling into a Gp's remit (or maybe used to until Blair screwed up royally? )

There are lots of immigrants in Scotland, plenty of racists on the left, and quite a lot people with sensible attitudes to immigrants on the right.

Indeed.

 

[radamfi]

This was the case

It is still the case. Come back to this thread in 5 years time and we will see how much immigration there has been. There is a well known shortage of people with STEM skills worldwide, just for starters.

 

[RT4038]

plenty of racists on the left, and quite a lot people with sensible attitudes to immigrants on the right.

And somewhere in the middle is probably where we need to be.

 

[Bevan Price]

Is it too late to cancel brexit?

Yes. And even if some future government wanted to rejoin, the terms on offer would be much less favourable than what we had before we left....

 

[class ep-09]

Good luck with managing those expectations! There can't be many host societies (now or in recent history) that require an uncontrolled influx of incomers to the numbers that happened of the EU FoM Eastern Europeans to the UK. I am not sure that it can be an 'ill of the host country' that such an influx cannot be coped with without upsetting the host country population.

All of that would be worth any attention if not the simple fact that the immigration from outside of the EU in the last 2 decades was far more bigger that from the EU .

Immigration was not even close to top of people’s concern before Fartage appeared with his odious gob.

Yes. And even if some future government wanted to rejoin, the terms on offer would be much less favourable than what we had before we left....

Indeed , we had better deal than Germany :
- no Schengen
- no Euro
- payment rebate

 

[RT4038]

All of that would be worth any attention if not the simple fact that the immigration from outside of the EU in the last 2 decades was far more bigger that from the EU .

Immigration was not even close to top of people’s concern before Fartage appeared with his odious gob.

There has been underlying discontent about immigration in this country going back to the 1960s. This discontent was whipped up most recently by Farage and his cronies, but I think it would be a mistake to assume that there was no underlying issues. Straws breaking camel's back and all that.