Brightline have terminated their relationship with Virgin Group

[Taunton]

Brightline has been suspended since March 2020, for 12 months now, and most of the personnel have been let go. There are various press stories about them resuming "maybe by the end of 2021", but I do wonder if we have seen the last of it on Florida East Coast tracks. Meanwhile competitor Tri-Rail, on CSX tracks a few blocks to the west, has carried on running and has pretty normal schedules.

The lawsuit by Virgin is presumably while they think there is some money still in the bank. It's over a commercial contract, so if Brightline declare bankruptcy then it's lost. The name change back to Brightline came six months after they stopped running, and was six months ago. What branding is on the currently idle stations and rolling stock?

Brightline : https://www.gobrightline.com/F-A-Q

Tri-Rail : https://www.tri-rail.com/pages/view/covid19

 

[hacman]

I would *NEVER* bet against Virgin in a legal fight; they always seem to come out on top

Agreed, but given the amount of money that has been flowing in this project and the longer-term prospects it has, I don't think it will cause the end of Brightline.

Brightline has been suspended since March 2020, for 12 months now, and most of the personnel have been let go. There are various press stories about them resuming "maybe by the end of 2021", but I do wonder if we have seen the last of it on Florida East Coast tracks. Meanwhile competitor Tri-Rail, on CSX tracks a few blocks to the west, has carried on running and has pretty normal schedules.

The lawsuit by Virgin is presumably while they think there is some money still in the bank. It's over a commercial contract, so if Brightline declare bankruptcy then it's lost. The name change back to Brightline came six months after they stopped running, and was six months ago. What branding is on the currently idle stations and rolling stock?

Brightline : https://www.gobrightline.cooptional)m/F-A-Q

Tri-Rail : https://www.tri-rail.com/pages/view/covid19

Brightline is the branding currently used. I think part of the reason for suspending is that it's just not worth it to run the service currently with only 3 stations complete and the downturn in commuting.

TriRail is a completely different beast, as it is managed by SFRTA and owned entirely by FDOT - meaning it is supported with public money. It's also a far more complete network at this point.

Brightline and TriRail only compete to a limited extent - they are largely aimed at different markets in the longer term.

 

[Taunton]

It would be good to know how complete the Brightline construction work on to Orlando actually is, in terms of physical progress on the ground. They are presumably just updating the FEC route north to Cocoa, and then turning due west to Orlando. Or planning to. All the progress reports I have seen are marketing hype-led rather than detailing actual work in hand.

It will be interesting to see how much it costs them to lay the new line across the swamps, compared to the huge figures that Network Rail budget for trivial widening etc work where there are "poor ground conditions".

 

[stuu]

You can see progress on google streetview in places, and also get a basic idea from Sentinel Playground, which shows very up-to-date satellite imagery. The route follows highway 528 west from Cocoa

 

[Timmyd]

Having travelled on Brightline in 2019, I struggle to think of a better train service that I've been on anywhere in the world. The stations, trains and customer service are all superb - there is genuinely nothing to compare with it in the US, and I can't think of anything much better in Europe either. Why they felt they needed the Virgin brand I don't know

 

[randompixel]

It would be good to know how complete the Brightline construction work on to Orlando actually is, in terms of physical progress on the ground. They are presumably just updating the FEC route north to Cocoa, and then turning due west to Orlando. Or planning to. All the progress reports I have seen are marketing hype-led rather than detailing actual work in hand.

It will be interesting to see how much it costs them to lay the new line across the swamps, compared to the huge figures that Network Rail budget for trivial widening etc work where there are "poor ground conditions".

The Roaming Railfan has some good construction videos. They're currently pushing a concrete box under a road. Lots of work has been done at Orlando Intl Airport.

 

[ainsworth74]

This appears to still be rumbling along in the background:

Sir Richard Branson’s Virgin Group was heading for a “brand catastrophe” as a result of difficulties it encountered during the coronavirus pandemic, according to an internal company email cited in a $250mn lawsuit that began on Monday.

The value of one of Britain’s best-known brands — whose logo has adorned banks, record shops and even spacecraft — is at the centre of legal action that Virgin is taking in London’s High Court against a former business partner in the US, the train operator Brightline.

Brightline, owned by Fortress Investment Group, had struck a 20-year deal with the UK-based group in 2018 to rebrand its service in Florida, and a planned route from Las Vegas to southern California, as Virgin Trains USA.

However, the US company abandoned the tie-up less than two years later, arguing that an exit clause in the contract was triggered because the brand Branson established in the early 1970s had lost its “international high repute”.

Brightline claimed some of Virgin’s own employees appeared to agree with this assessment. In documents filed with the court on Monday, it cited internal company communications in which its staff discussed how to manage various reputational problems.

These included public criticism of Virgin Atlantic during the pandemic, when it requested bailout funds from the UK government and asked staff to take unpaid leave, while Branson was living in a tax haven.

US rail operator claims Virgin Group faced ‘brand catastrophe’ during pandemic

Value of UK brand at centre of dispute as Sir Richard Branson’s company takes legal action against Brightline

www.ft.com

Hat tip @JaJaWa

 

[Backroom_boy]

No idea how this will turn out; I've always thought 'don't bet againest Virgin' when it comes to the courts but Fortress must be pretty sure of their case. However this would be existential stuff for Virgin, if they don't win I'm sure that'll give legal precedent for other companies to exit agreements.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Virgin Orbit closed down earlier this year after the failure of the prototype satellite launch from Cornwall.
Virgin Galactic, offering space tourism to rich customers, still seems to be in business.
But Virgin Group does not appear to be the company it was.

Brightline itself operates roughly hourly trains over 65 miles from Miami to West Palm Beach (max speed 79mph), and plans to extend to Orlando in September 2023.

 

[eldomtom2]

No idea how this will turn out; I've always thought 'don't bet againest Virgin' when it comes to the courts but Fortress must be pretty sure of their case. However this would be existential stuff for Virgin, if they don't win I'm sure that'll give legal precedent for other companies to exit agreements.

At least if they have the same clause regarding abiliity to exit if Virgin's reputation is no longer an asset.

 

[Russel]

Was any Brightline stock actually put into some kind of Virgin livery?

I've had a google but all I can find is a couple of computer generated images.

 

[67thave]

Was any Brightline stock actually put into some kind of Virgin livery?

I've had a google but all I can find is a couple of computer generated images.

To my knowledge all trains retained Brightline branding.
I believe that the Brightline station in Miami briefly carried Virgin branding. That's all gone now.

 

[michael8]

To my knowledge all trains retained Brightline branding.
I believe that the Brightline station in Miami briefly carried Virgin branding. That's all gone now.

Yes I think that's right - when I went the station was red + black stripes and the trains were yellow

 

[hacman]

This is going to be an interesting one.

Virgin is not the brand it was back in the late 90s/early 00s. At that time Virgin was cool, a challenger, an innovator. These days they’ve got a name that many consider toxic after their steps into markets like banking and healthcare; and for the most part offer services that appeal to people of an older demographic.

At the worst end of the spectrum many consider their brand utterly toxic, with companies like Virgin Media having reputations for horrific customer service, and many seeing endeavours such as Virgin Galactic as anywhere between controversial and outright immoral.

I’m not really sure why Brightline felt they needed Virgin in the first place. The Brightline brand is fresh and inviting, and definitely has a Floridian feel about it. What they’re doing is also fairly groundbreaking, so they’re already in the spotlight.

Either way the only people who will actually win here are the lawyers.

 

[Backroom_boy]

I’m not really sure why Brightline felt they needed Virgin in the first place. The Brightline brand is fresh and inviting, and definitely has a Floridian feel about it. What they’re doing is also fairly groundbreaking, so they’re already in the spotlight.

Yes I agree. I think someone at Brightline thought they were getting a genuine partnership rather than licencing a brand. Maybe didn't read the small print. Was there any changes in the C suite before Brightline commenced this action?

Either way the only people who will actually win here are the lawyers.

Actually I disagree on this; one side or other is in line for a substantial hit and the other a big plus.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Meanwhile, Brightline is due to open its Orlando service on Sep 1st, doing the c240 miles in 3hrs 30mins (ave 68mph).

Whilst not high speed by European standards, it’s good to see a credible medium distance rail alternative in the USA outside the North East corridor.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Virgin is not the brand it was back in the late 90s/early 00s.

Agreed. It's strange that they went into partnership with Virgin to begin with, although it's worth pointing out that any cooperation with Virgin does involve getting their marketing support. The brand is still a strong one, although certainly it's aged along with Branson.

The issue is probably more related to the fact that Branson doesn't really seem interested in operating businesses. Apart from the airline, does he even have a controlling stake in anything anymore? I wouldn't be surprised if they thought they were going to get Branson of the 1980s/1990s and instead they got some e-mails from Necker Island and not much else.

 

[hacman]

Meanwhile, Brightline is due to open its Orlando service on Sep 1st, doing the c240 miles in 3hrs 30mins (ave 68mph).

Whilst not high speed by European standards, it’s good to see a credible medium distance rail alternative in the USA outside the North East corridor.

I suppose the other thing is this is all being developed at a sustainable pace, and they are laying the framework for other upgrades and improvements once the service has been running for a few years. In the meantime, the service offering seems to be very experience-heavy, which is absolutely the way to attract passengers from car and air travel.

My only criticism of the project is there are a number of markets passed without service; Cocoa (with some sort of onward link to Port Canaveral) and Melbourne (especially since the line goes right beside the airport) being the biggest, and the lack of a station in downtown Orlando. Hopefully, these things get added at a later date as they have the potential to provide a good amount of "base load" patronage.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Given that American Airlines alone has 9 daily flights between Orlando and Miami, (so about 1,800 seats), then it’s not difficult to envisage it being successful in filling up their 4 coach sets with abstracted airline traffic. I hope their only problem is not enough capacity.

 

[eldomtom2]

Given that American Airlines alone has 9 daily flights between Orlando and Miami, (so about 1,800 seats), then it’s not difficult to envisage it being successful in filling up their 4 coach sets with abstracted airline traffic. I hope their only problem is not enough capacity.

Of course there is the time factor - Orlando-Miami flights seem to take about an hour and ten minutes, while the fastest Brightline trains only manage a bit under three and a half hours. Hopefully they can successfully compete on non-time factors.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Of course there is the time factor - Orlando-Miami flights seem to take about an hour and ten minutes, while the fastest Brightline trains only manage a bit under three and a half hours. Hopefully they can successfully compete on non-time factors.

Often not included in such figures is the time it takes in the departure airport between arriving at the door and actually leaving the tarmac. I don't know how long that is in Miami and I'm sure it's quite variable depending on (for example) the queues at security screening. But I doubt I'd want to turn up less than about 2 hours before scheduled departure, if I were to want to be certain of catching a specific flight. That needs comparing to the equivalent time at the departure rail station, and the difference (if any - and I guess there is) included in the equation.

In other words - a better measure to compare is the time from airport/station entry door to airport/station exit door.

In Orlando, the station is at the airport. In Miami, it is not. There may also be a time difference in local travel time, one way or the other, depending on where you actually start out.

 

[Backroom_boy]

Often not included in such figures is the time it takes in the departure airport between arriving at the door and actually leaving the tarmac.

In other words - a better measure to compare is the time from airport/station entry door to airport/station exit door.

Yes I agree. Brightline also have a checked baggage policy much more like an airline than what we're used to in the UK. I wonder how much time that adds to the station stops?

(Same policy with Amtrak but their offer isn't based on speed)

 

[AlterEgo]

Meanwhile, Brightline is due to open its Orlando service on Sep 1st, doing the c240 miles in 3hrs 30mins (ave 68mph).

Whilst not high speed by European standards, it’s good to see a credible medium distance rail alternative in the USA outside the North East corridor.

It’s an exciting development and I plan to be on the very first train out of Orlando. Brightline is very comfortable and has lovely stations.

Yes I agree. Brightline also have a checked baggage policy much more like an airline than what we're used to in the UK. I wonder how much time that adds to the station stops?

(Same policy with Amtrak but their offer isn't based on speed)

It’s very quick. I travelled with them shortly after opening and the dwell at West Palm Beach was very short, perhaps a minute or less.

 

[Brissle Girl]

It’s an exciting development and I plan to be on the very first train out of Orlando. Brightline is very comfortable and has lovely stations.


It’s very quick. I travelled with them shortly after opening and the dwell at West Palm Beach was very short, perhaps a minute or less.

I wonder whether the point was in relation to arrival time needed at the station prior to departure if the baggage needs to be checked, rather than dwell times.

 

[Backroom_boy]

I wonder whether the point was in relation to arrival time needed at the station prior to departure if the baggage needs to be checked, rather than dwell times.

Bit of both. I suppose if a medium sized back pack is allowed unchecked that would be sufficient for most time sensitive travellers.

 

[michael8]

Often not included in such figures is the time it takes in the departure airport between arriving at the door and actually leaving the tarmac. I don't know how long that is in Miami and I'm sure it's quite variable depending on (for example) the queues at security screening. But I doubt I'd want to turn up less than about 2 hours before scheduled departure, if I were to want to be certain of catching a specific flight. That needs comparing to the equivalent time at the departure rail station, and the difference (if any - and I guess there is) included in the equation.

In other words - a better measure to compare is the time from airport/station entry door to airport/station exit door.

In Orlando, the station is at the airport. In Miami, it is not. There may also be a time difference in local travel time, one way or the other, depending on where you actually start out.

When I travelled with them from Miami Central to Ft Lauderdale, I turned up at the station on foot, bought my ticket there and then, and was on the next train. I think I remember my luggage had to be scanned en route to the platform but was a quick and easy experience! Would highly recommend a trip on this service as it was so fun.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

European Rail Timetable is reporting that Brightline has put off its extension from West Palm Beach to Orlando from its promised start in September.
No new start date has been given.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Some talk on social media that there is a legal dispute with a party along the route which has been opposed to the service from the outset, which is causing the delay.